- Therion - speleo.sk

Re: [Therion] Incorrect depth generated for legend
by McLendonJP＠aol.com 27 Jun '12

27 Jun '12

Thanks Bruce for the code, I should have found that myself in the wiki, sorry. It's exactly what I needed. JP McLendon In a message dated 6/27/2012 2:08:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bruce(a)tomo.co.nz writes: >I'm assuming that therion uses the vertical difference between the highest station and the lowest station to generate the depth number without regard to LRUD data, is this correct? Yes. >And does anybody have a suggestion for how I can easily get the correct depth output onto my map? You can add some tex code to a layout. See _http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php?id=tex#overriding_data_supplied_by_therion_map_headers_ (http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php?id=tex#o verriding_data_supplied_by_therion_map_headers) Eg code tex-map \cavedepth{300\thinspace{}ft} %forcing reported depth to 300 ft endcode >I can see how this could be a significant issue if you had a cave with little vertical extent except for a high dome. You would have to shoot a shot to a station at the top of the dome to capture it's vertical extent in the legend data. That would avoid the need to manually edit the depth each time you suspected a new survey might change the depth of the cave. It would be my preferred method, even if it means creating an artificial shot to replicate the ‘up ’ data. It would need ‘flags duplicate’ to prevent it being added to the reported survey network length. Bruce _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion(a)speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion

1 0

LRUD data
by Graham Mullan 27 Jun '12

27 Jun '12

> From: McLendonJP(a)aol.com > Also, I experimented with using "walls on" to see if it would get >Therion > to use the LRUD data to determine depth. It didn't, but I found that > Therion is reading my LRUD data as meters instead of feet. I use the >command > "units length feet" before the data but seems to only work for the >tape > measurement. Am I missing something? Can I assume that you have separate blocks of data for the centreline and the LRUD? If so then you need to enter the "units length feet" line again after the "data dimensions station left right up down" line. Alternatively just take all your measurements in metres ;-) You are right, however, that Therion determines depth by the difference between the highest and lowest stations. It is difficult to see how else it would work. It is a trivial matter to mark your highest and lowest points as stations. Graham > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Incorrect depth generated for legend (McLendonJP(a)aol.com) > 2. Re: Incorrect depth generated for legend (Olly Betts) > 3. Re: Incorrect depth generated for legend (Bruce) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:06:50 -0400 (EDT) > From: McLendonJP(a)aol.com > Subject: [Therion] Incorrect depth generated for legend > To: Therion(a)speleo.sk > Message-ID: <1fbcc.371cc17a.3d1b7e6a(a)aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I recently used Therion to produce a map for a short horizontal cave. The > cave is only a little over 100' long and the floor is almost level from one > end to the other. The "depth" information that Therion generated for the > legend is 3 feet even though some of the passage in the cave is 5 feet high. > I'm assuming that therion uses the vertical difference between the highest > station and the lowest station to generate the depth number without regard > to LRUD data, is this correct? And does anybody have a suggestion for how I > can easily get the correct depth output onto my map? I can see how this > could be a significant issue if you had a cave with little vertical extent > except for a high dome. You would have to shoot a shot to a station at the > top of the dome to capture it's vertical extent in the legend data. > > Also, I experimented with using "walls on" to see if it would get Therion > to use the LRUD data to determine depth. It didn't, but I found that > Therion is reading my LRUD data as meters instead of feet. I use the command > "units length feet" before the data but seems to only work for the tape > measurement. Am I missing something? > > Sorry if these questions are a little basic, but I've still got a lot to > learn about Therion. > > Much thanks, > JP McLendon > > >

1 0

Incorrect depth generated for legend
by McLendonJP＠aol.com 27 Jun '12

27 Jun '12

I recently used Therion to produce a map for a short horizontal cave. The cave is only a little over 100' long and the floor is almost level from one end to the other. The "depth" information that Therion generated for the legend is 3 feet even though some of the passage in the cave is 5 feet high. I'm assuming that therion uses the vertical difference between the highest station and the lowest station to generate the depth number without regard to LRUD data, is this correct? And does anybody have a suggestion for how I can easily get the correct depth output onto my map? I can see how this could be a significant issue if you had a cave with little vertical extent except for a high dome. You would have to shoot a shot to a station at the top of the dome to capture it's vertical extent in the legend data. Also, I experimented with using "walls on" to see if it would get Therion to use the LRUD data to determine depth. It didn't, but I found that Therion is reading my LRUD data as meters instead of feet. I use the command "units length feet" before the data but seems to only work for the tape measurement. Am I missing something? Sorry if these questions are a little basic, but I've still got a lot to learn about Therion. Much thanks, JP McLendon

3 2

line wall:pit AUT has a fill anomaly
by Bruce 25 Jun '12

25 Jun '12

Hi line wall:pit AUT has a fill anomaly similar to the debris blocks anomaly that was fixed with 5.3.9. The end symbol is not filled at the start of each line segment (used here to denote an entrance at the base of a surface cliff). Also, the shorter length of the thinner line looks good for a stand alone line, but when two lines are joined, as might commonly be the case, there is often a gap. Perhaps better if the thin line is closer to the same length as the thick line? And an idea for consideration. The above image suggests that the symbol size tweaking to match the line length might need its limits adjusting slightly. The contrast between biggest and smallest symbols seems a bit much to me -perhaps compensating a smaller maximum size with a longer 'blank' length at each end? And yes, I could resolve the size/gap issues by drawing one continuous line, but they cross multiple scraps in some places. Bruce

5 8

Error on using undo - cannot break the resulting loop
by Andrew Atkinson 22 Jun '12

22 Jun '12

Hello I tried the savannah bug site, but although I thought I had a log in, I seem not to, or have completely forgotten it. So I tried to register, but the capcha would not let me past, kept getting this error Please correctly answer the antispam captcha! Bad passphrase (not enough different characters or classes for this length) Warning: Savane was not able to read "" site-specific information, please contact administrators I am sure I did not get them all wrong, I even did the audio, to confirm on a few of them. Anyway onto the therion error. While drawing a rock-border, I tried to follow a couple of wall points, then decided against it, (I might have managed to end the line, but double clicking, but not sure about this) Did a couple of undos with crtl-z and got the error can't read "xth(me,cmds,22,8,x)": no such element in array can't read "xth(me,cmds,22,8,x)": no such element in array while executing "set ox $xth(me,cmds,$id,$pid,x)" (procedure "xth_me_cmds_update_line" line 12) invoked from within "xth_me_cmds_update_line $id $pid $xth(ctrl,me,line,type) $xth(ctrl,me,line,name) $xth(ctrl,me,line,opts) $xth(ctrl,me,line,reverse) $xth(ctrl,me,lin..." (procedure "xth_me_cmds_update" line 28) invoked from within "xth_me_cmds_update {}" (procedure "xth_me_unredo_undo" line 4) invoked from within "xth_me_unredo_undo" (procedure "xth_app_control_z" line 7) invoked from within "xth_app_control_z" (command bound to event) Also the menus have disappeared, (not sure if this is related) After this all I can find that I can do is move the page with right click, and change between the 3 windows using the icons or the function keys. I can open and close files in the data and configuration windows, and edit the text in all windows. Everything else I try give the same error above, whichever window I am in. I cannot even close, with the cross icon or alt-F4. Andrew

2 2

"missing" surface leg
by Graham Mullan 18 Jun '12

18 Jun '12

I have a survey that consists of two short sections of passage leading from each side of a small closed depression. The caves are linked by a surface leg across the depression. This leg is flagged as surface. On the 3d file that seems fine, but on the lox file the image shows a defined passage where the surface leg should be. Graham

2 1

Re: [Therion] Therion Digest, Vol 78, Issue 10
by Graham Mullan 14 Jun '12

14 Jun '12

Thanks, Laura I shall do that. Graham -- graham.mullan(a)coly.org.uk 0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803) On 14/06/2012 11:00, therion-request(a)speleo.sk wrote: > Send Therion mailing list submissions to > therion(a)speleo.sk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > therion-request(a)speleo.sk > > You can reach the person managing the list at > therion-owner(a)speleo.sk > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Therion digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK Cave Surveying > Group (Footleg) > 2. Re: Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK Cave > Surveying Group (Andrew Atkinson) > 3. Missing data (Graham Mullan) > 4. Re: Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK > CaveSurveying Group (Bruce) > 5. Re: Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK Cave > Surveying Group (Sluka Martin) > 6. Re: Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK > CaveSurveying Group (Bruce) > 7. Re: Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK > CaveSurveying Group (Andrew Atkinson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:33:41 +0100 > From: Footleg<drfootleg(a)gmail.com> > Subject: [Therion] Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK Cave > Surveying Group > To: List for Therion users<therion(a)speleo.sk> > Message-ID: > <CAJkGg4kJPBPrzb1MsFjZK3_PR2d66pBxEqhsvFKuFgJkSVemBg(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Over the past couple of years the UK based Cave Surveying Group (CSG) > have run a number of training courses to teach DistoX Paperless > surveying and drawing up with Therion. I have now written the first > draft of a training guide based on the data gathered on one of these > courses. The CSG also have a new website where we are starting to > publish online. The CSG homepage is http://cp.cavesurveying.org.uk/ > > The training course and example data can be found here: > http://cp.cavesurveying.org.uk/index.php/articles/3-therion-tutorial > > I would welcome any feedback on the content of the tutorial as it is > an on going project to improve the content to cover more features of > Therion, and to correct any mistakes in the parts I have written so > far. > > Perhaps someone with wiki editing permissions could add a link to this > training material to the therion wiki too? > > Footleg > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:45:35 +0100 > From: Andrew Atkinson<andrew(a)wotcc.org.uk> > Subject: Re: [Therion] Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK > Cave Surveying Group > To: List for Therion users<therion(a)speleo.sk> > Message-ID:<4FD8997F.5070707(a)wotcc.org.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > On 13/06/12 14:33, Footleg wrote: >> Perhaps someone with wiki editing permissions could add a link to this >> training material to the therion wiki too? > > > Done http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php?id=start > > Andrew > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:46:15 +0100 > From: Graham Mullan<graham.mullan(a)coly.org.uk> > Subject: [Therion] Missing data > To: List for Therion users<therion(a)speleo.sk> > Message-ID:<4FD8D1E7.1020604(a)coly.org.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I am still dealing with a lot of legacy data from the 1950s and 1960s > where clinos were not used. > > Using Survex this is not a problem, as I just enter the data after a line: > > data normal from to compass tape ignoreall > > and the program will run. > > In Therion, however, the same circumstance gives the error message: > > -- not all data for given style > > This is a problem as it would require me to enter a series of zeros, > which does not equate to reality. In some caves, the altitudes are > constrained by the use of fixed points, at multiple entrances, which > allows for this data lack. In Therion I am not so sure how this will work. > > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:37:26 +1200 > From: Bruce<bruce(a)tomo.co.nz> > Subject: Re: [Therion] Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK > CaveSurveying Group > To: 'List for Therion users'<therion(a)speleo.sk> > Message-ID:<D0F99E94D4644C859AFFE5EFCC49CECE@JUICEBRAIN> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > That is looking great Footleg. Clear and concise documentation with non-essential stuff stripped away. Fantastic! > > > It should be placed above my similar entry on the Therion wiki page, and not below! > > A minor quibble. > > "Note that the team members names are only allowed to contain one space character, so use hyphens for double barrelled names or your project will generate an error when you try to compile it." > >> From the Therion Book > " person ? a person?s first name and surname separated by whitespace characters. Use > ?/? to separate first name and surname if there are more names." > > So perhaps rephrase to > > "Note that the team members names are only allowed to contain one space character. You can use a forward-space character, /, to emulate the second and subsequent spaces in a name. If you don't, your project will generate an error when you try to compile it." > > I'll keep reading... > > Bruce > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 07:58:52 +0200 > From: Sluka Martin<martinsluka(a)me.com> > Subject: Re: [Therion] Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK > Cave Surveying Group > To: List for Therion users<therion(a)speleo.sk> > Message-ID:<94713252-A3AD-4262-A0B6-E167F51FA124(a)me.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > >> I would welcome any feedback on the content of the tutorial as it is >> an on going project to improve the content to cover more features of >> Therion, and to correct any mistakes in the parts I have written so >> far. > > Hi, > > one thing more: we use for control of walls and joins or colour map-fg or colour map-bg. One may see all uncorrect joins very easy: check it with your pit sample. > > Martin s. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:07:55 +1200 > From: Bruce<bruce(a)tomo.co.nz> > Subject: Re: [Therion] Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK > CaveSurveying Group > To: 'List for Therion users'<therion(a)speleo.sk> > Message-ID:<60C1E90414CF4863B53DEDF4BC6A80E1@JUICEBRAIN> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >> The training course and example data can be found here: >> http://cp.cavesurveying.org.uk/index.php/articles/3-therion-tutorial > >> I would welcome any feedback on the content of the tutorial as it is >> an on going project ... > > I have a question for the Therion Gods. > > I notice the example uses a data format with the map definition INSIDE the > survey like this... > > survey bpw > input bpw.th2 > > map bpwMP > bpwSP1 > break > bpwSP2 > endmap > > centreline > date 2011.12.03 > <etc> > endcentreline > endsurvey > > I have always tried to keep my map definitions OUTSIDE of surveys, as I've > been following the dictum to keep surveys and maps as independent as > possible. Having said that, Therion seems to think my maps are inside the > survey one level up in the hierarchy, for example I need to specify items > like; > select bpwMP@BullPotFarm > > (assuming, hypothetically that the example project is developed to include a > few more caves, and collects them into survey called BullPotFarm), > > instead of just > > select bpwMP > > which is what I normally get for a single level survey like the one in the > example. > > It has always confused me a little, as there seems to be no reason, based on > my inputs, that the maps should be part of any survey. Theoretically they > should be a completely independent hierarchy (I think). And the Xtherion > map structure window places them in their own hierarchy (independent of > surveys), but in the lower levels therion puts them in a survey like > @BullPotFarm when it is double clicked to produce a 'select' statement. > Everything compiles fine, so I just accept it and put it down to one of > life's little mysteries. > > So enlighten me. Is Footlegs example with the map defined within a survey > the preferred way to define maps? (because therion will force them into a > survey if you have more than one level of surveys anyway?) > Or are there more ways to do things, with various pros and cons? > Bruce > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 09:37:15 +0100 > From: Andrew Atkinson<andrew(a)wotcc.org.uk> > Subject: Re: [Therion] Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK > CaveSurveying Group > To: therion(a)speleo.sk > Message-ID:<4FD9A2BB.9060804(a)wotcc.org.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > On 14/06/12 09:07, Bruce wrote: >> I have always tried to keep my map definitions OUTSIDE of surveys, as I've >> been following the dictum to keep surveys and maps as independent as >> possible. Having said that, Therion seems to think my maps are inside the >> survey one level up in the hierarchy, for example I need to specify items >> like; >> select bpwMP@BullPotFarm > > Interesting interpretation, which had not crossed my mind, which is why > I arrange the maps as it is in Footlegs example. > >> From my point of view (although I am very interested in what the 'gods' > had in mind) I had interpreted it that the maps would probably be better > if they did not equate to survey trip into caves not the > survey-endsurvey nest. Now I understood this was because surveys trips > tend to finish at junctions, which is the worse place to join maps. Also > side passages are inevitably junctions. So I just slightly altered my > surveying method, to one that I should have been doing before Therion. I > just made sure that every side passage had a leg down it, now with the > distoX this is really easy, you do not even have to go into the passage, > the point just becomes temporary until you go back and survey the > passage, but it removes the map join from the junction. In reality we > should have always done this, as it show leads on the centreline and > their direction, which has lead to a few links been discovered that in > the past we would have ignored until much latter. > > For older data where survey trips do not correspond to maps, I still put > maps in survey-endsurvey nests to get something like this > > survey 1 > map 1a > endmap > > map 1b > endmap > endsurvey > > survey 2 > map 2 > endmap > endsurvey > > survey a > centreline > endcentreline > endsurvey > > > Although generally I have moved to put them into one survey-endsurvey > which I find gives better naming control > > survey cavename > map 1a > endmap > > map 1b > endmap > > map 2 > endmap > > centreline > endcentreline > endsurvey > > Anyway it works for me, although I am always interested in more > efficient/clear systems > > Andrew > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Therion mailing list > Therion(a)speleo.sk > http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion > > > End of Therion Digest, Vol 78, Issue 10 > *************************************** >

1 0

Missing data
by Graham Mullan 13 Jun '12

13 Jun '12

I am still dealing with a lot of legacy data from the 1950s and 1960s where clinos were not used. Using Survex this is not a problem, as I just enter the data after a line: data normal from to compass tape ignoreall and the program will run. In Therion, however, the same circumstance gives the error message: -- not all data for given style This is a problem as it would require me to enter a series of zeros, which does not equate to reality. In some caves, the altitudes are constrained by the use of fixed points, at multiple entrances, which allows for this data lack. In Therion I am not so sure how this will work. Graham

1 0

help for extended start
by Danilo Magnani 12 Jun '12

12 Jun '12

Hi first of all sorry for my english. I need help: I want that the above/below map (dark map) join point BDVv38 (and start from) instead BDVv58. I don't really know if my work is good, so any suggestion is welcome. Ciao Danilo

2 1

xtherion trace line, convert to curve
by Bruce 10 Jun '12

10 Jun '12

Are there any instructions regarding Xtherion's 'trace line' and 'convert to curve' line editing features? I expect there are - just cannot find them. The 'convert to curve' seems to take a line with straight segments and converts it to a smooth curve, so perhaps not so complicated. I have not been able to get any useful insights after playing with 'trace line', except that it adds two buttons to the interface. Thanks Bruce

4 10