- Therion - speleo.sk

Mud and sand
by Andrew Atkinson 17 Dec '04

17 Dec '04

Stacho Mudrak wrote >> >> In any case, soon I will probably add those missing area symbols - >> blocks, snow, ice and mud, but I am afraid, blocks will not look nice. >> But it has to be better than drawing them by hand >> One question, what is the difference between mud and clay? clay = mud >> without water? Should it mean the same, or not? I am not a sedimentologist, but I think that clay is a type of mud, usually of a finer grain. Mud possibly covers silt and sand as well. As a cave surveyor I do not think that I can tell a difference, so would would not particularly want different symbols, but I suspect there are lot of people out there who do. I have tended to use minus signs for mud and dots for sand. But I most probably should be using dots for all of it Andrew Atkinson

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Tom library and scrap connections
by Wookey 16 Dec '04

16 Dec '04

I've got back to Therion after a long period of working all the time. I have a _lot_ of cave to draw up... Current Debian Status: You may recall that I discovered in October that the 0.3.3 version of therion I was building should have had the TOM/OPenGL stuff in it, but didn't. So I've started packaging the Tom library for Debian so that Therion can use it. This is not a trivial job to do properly, and I haven't yet succeeded in building a Debian Therion with 3D support, but expect to in the next couple of weeks. This probably won't quite make it into the imminend debian stable release (but the existing therion 0.3.3-1 is). Connecting scraps: My biggest problem at the moment with Therion is how to split up scraps and connect them nicely. I am drawing over previously-drawn-to-scale scans. given that I want to join scraps at convenient (low detail/logical) places and not the edges of scans, how can I best do this so they match up? I can keep adding background drawings into one file and draw all the scraps that way but I will end up with a huge file that is very slow to load and manipulate, even if I turn off some images which I am not longer directly using. As soon as I start a new file with new background images then I can't see where the old scrap ends so I don't know where to start the new scrap. How do others deal with this problem? How well does therion deal with the lines significantly overlapping, or not reaching each other? Do you always add in the adjoining scan so that you can see what it looked like? This still doesn't really help with remembering how far you drew up to on the last scrap. I feel I am missing something obvious here, as the existing system doesn't seem to work. How is everyone else managing it? How can we make it easier to use? Bugs: I found a couple of bugs, one serious. (using therion 0.3.3-1 on x86) 1) If I have an image (PNM) of size 1672x2333 then only about half of it is visible in the map editor. This makes it impossible to draw round. Is this expected? Should images be limited to some size before they can be importad as background? If so what is that size? 2) if keys used to change mode (F2, F1 etc) then menu top bar disappears.('normalize' window size fixes it). Can anyone else reproduce this Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/

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Re: [Fwd: RE: therion]
by Stacho Mudrak 14 Dec '04

14 Dec '04

Andrew Atkinson wrote: >> Well, most of the people find it too difficult :) > > > It does make my head hurt. Therion in the beginning was only experiment and we wanted just to draw a simple map of our complicated 19km cave system. There are a lot of things, that could be designed simplier, but it is too late... :( > PS Any chance of some more fills or control of the density, you can hardly > see the sand and debris fill. (on the attached pdf you can only see the sand > when you zoom in) This is a serious BUG, we have discovered 2 weeks ago. It will be certainly fixed in next release. > Also would it be possible to fill passages with small rocks and medium > rocks. Mud would be useful too. With area we have one problem, that is still not solved. Metapost is not able to tell us, whether specific point lies inside or outside a clipping region. When drawing rocks, it will look terrible, if a rock would be clipped by invisible border in the middle. In any case, soon I will probably add those missing area symbols - blocks, snow, ice and mud, but I am afraid, blocks will not look nice. One question, what is the difference between mud and clay? clay = mud without water? Should it mean the same, or not? > My ideal solution would be to pick an area an then use an option like > -medium_rock 30 -small_rock 50 > and this would mix the 2 fills in these percentages leaving the other 20 > percent (in this case) empty. > While I am on the thought process, I would really like to be able to define > a graded change from say rocks to sand, possibly by putting a straight line > though an area labelling on end -small_rocks 100 and the other end -sand 100 > and the fill would slowly grade. :) Even it looks crazy, this can be a solution. If a rocks, debris, sand or other clastic sediments (mud) would be randomly drawn around a line (like it is done in tunnel). There would be no problem with clipping and it is possible to do also gradient changes (probably...) > Terrible isn't it you spend all your time writing a wonderful program and > all I do is ask for more. All I can say is thanks again, one day I may see > you to buy you a drink. Until now, we were not using areas et all. Our primary target was to have a map, which will be allways up-to-date and there will be all information. For passage fills, we used only point symbols - because those rocks are usually drawn randomly also in the survey notes. Therefore if passage is full of rocks or there is one symbol, that means that passage is full of rocks, it is the same information. The second approach is more easier to implement and read in a map, the first looks nicer (sometimes :) . Fills around the line could solve this problem, but it will definitely need some time. It will not be trivial to implement, and I am currently more focused on 3D modelling, which I am missing much more... Regards, S. P.S. I Cc-ed this message to therion conference, may be some other users will write some useful remarks...

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problem with 0.2.17 in 0.3.4
by Simeon Warner 04 Nov '04

04 Nov '04

I recently picked up a project I started working on with therion 0.2.17 and installed 0.3.4. When I try to compile I get lots of errors of the form shown below. Can anyone suggest where I should look to fix this? Cheers, Simeon simeon@localhost mcfails>therion mcfails.thconfig therion 0.3.4 configuration file: mcfails.thconfig reading ... done reading source files ... done preprocessing database ... done scanning centreline tree ... done searching for centerline loops ... done calculating station coordinates ... done calculating basic statistics ... done processing references ... done selecting export objects ... done processing projection plan ... done average distortion: 5.01% writing mcfails_beyond_asia_dome.pdf ... This is MetaPost, Version 0.641 (Web2C 7.3.1) (data.mp [4001] [4002] [4003] [4004] [4005] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] ! Inconsistent equation (off by -96.8626). <to be read again> ; <for(1)> ...z1,zz2])>0.1pt):zz5=whatever[zz1,zz2]; (zz3-zz5)=whatever*(zz1-zz... l_section->...z2--zz6;else:draw.zz1--zz2;fi;endfor ;for.pnt=(TEXT1):if.pnt=-1... l.3238 ),) ; ! Inconsistent equation (off by -18.38467). <to be read again> ; <for(1)> ...(zz3-zz5)=whatever*(zz1-zz2)rotated90; draw.zz1--zz5;zz6=whatever... l_section->...z2--zz6;else:draw.zz1--zz2;fi;endfor ;for.pnt=(TEXT1):if.pnt=-1... l.3238 ),) ; .... ! Inconsistent equation (off by 24.34366). <to be read again> ; <for(21)> ...zz4-zz6)=whatever*(zz1-zz2)rotated90; draw.zz2--zz6;else:draw.zz... l_section->...z2--zz6;else:draw.zz1--zz2;fi;endfor ;for.pnt=(TEXT1):if.pnt=-1... l.3238 ),) ; [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [Warning: scrap outline intersects itself in scrap_asia1@mcfails] [35] [36] [37] [38] ) (see the transcript file for additional information) 43 output files written: data.1 .. data.4005 Transcript written on data.log. /home/simeon/bin/therion/therion: error -- metapost exit code -- 256 (yhe error doesn't go away if I remove the scrap reported as intersecting itself)

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Font sizes for labels
by Jenny Black 27 Oct '04

27 Oct '04

Thanks for helping with all my other questions, heres another one... I would like to use two different font sizes for labeling passages, ideally in the same font-type. Is it possible to do this in therion? I have tried a few things... I have been using the "label" point symbol for these labels. The thbook suggests that the size of point symbols can be altered with "-scale s" however this doesn't seem to do anything to labels, so presumably it only works for certain point symbols? I tried using the line symbol for labels, but I would like to make the labels horizontal, and even if the line appears horizontal in the Map Editor, it doesnt end up horizontal in the final map (presumably it gets morphed with the passage?). I then tried to use the "remark" point symbol, and this successfully produces a small font size, however, whislt I figured out how to stop it being italic (-text "<rm>Passage Name") it seems to be in a different font type to the other labels produced by the "label" point symbol. Any ideas please? Thanks! Jenny

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therion workshop
by Martin Sluka 26 Oct '04

26 Oct '04

Hi, we are preparing the Therion workshop. Date: last weekend of November - 27th and 28t'h. Place: Czech Republic - Moravian Karst - near Brno or Czech Karst - near Prague. Program: Main goal is - each participant should be able to create individualy cave map and other outputs in Therion. For participants: please bring your own computer if possible. To work with therion without one is not very practical. Cave program - it depends on interest. For details contact me, Stacho or Lada Blazek - blazek (att) speleo (ddott) cz Best regards Martin Sluka --

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Therion 0.3.4
by Martin Budaj 22 Oct '04

22 Oct '04

Hello everybody, Therion 0.3.4 is available for download. The most important improvements are: - Error messages in Compiler window in XTherion are hyperlinked to data source files - group/endgroup inside centreline command - Windows installation: TeX/MetaPost works even if there is other TeX installation present in the system (it used not to run if there was TeXLive installed) Therion team

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Unhelpful metapost error
by Olly Betts 14 Oct '04

14 Oct '04

My, I'm all questions today... When I try to process my survey to produce a PDF plan, metapost appears to not like something, but there's no error message, so I've no idea where to look. I've attached the log, I can send other stuff if that's helpful. This is therion 0.3.3 on Linux, with THUSESVX defined. Cheers, Olly therion 0.3.3 initialization file: /etc/therion.ini reading ... done configuration file: thconfig reading ... done reading source files ... done preprocessing database ... done processing survey data ... ####################### cavern log file ######################## 1> Survex 1.0.31 2> Copyright (C) 1990-2004 Olly Betts 3> Survey has no fixed points. Therefore I've fixed 1 at (0,0,0) 4> 5> Survey contains 275 survey stations, joined by 274 legs. 6> There are 0 loops. 7> Total length of survey legs = 1180.04m (1180.04m adjusted) 8> Total plan length of survey legs = 868.99m 9> Total vertical length of survey legs = 522.64m 10> Vertical range = 189.70m (from 21 at 2.59m to 185 at -187.11m) 11> North-South range = 139.82m (from 261 at 16.42m to 242 at -123.40m) 12> East-West range = 145.01m (from 196 at 34.11m to 231 at -110.90m) 13> 32 1-nodes. 14> 219 2-nodes. 15> 19 3-nodes. 16> 4 4-nodes. 17> 1 5-node. 18> ######################### transcription ######################## 3> 1 : 2@entrance.76 5> 275 : 15@boiling.76 -- 274 : 14@boiling.76 10> 21 : 1@bent.76 -- 185 : 11@keg.76 11> 261 : 1@boiling.76 -- 242 : 12@noways.76 12> 196 : 3@tap.76 -- 231 : 1@noways.76 13> 32 : 5@brave.76 14> 219 : 5@rift.76 15> 19 : 8@bent.76 16> 4 : 4@entrance.76 17> 1 : 2@entrance.76 #################### end of cavern log file #################### done calculating basic statistics ... done processing references ... done selecting export objects ... done scanning centreline tree ... done processing projection plan ... done average distortion: 2.77% writing 76_plan.pdf ... ####################### metapost log file ######################## Survex 1.0.31 Copyright (C) 1990-2004 Olly Betts Survey has no fixed points. Therefore I've fixed 1 at (0,0,0) Survey contains 275 survey stations, joined by 274 legs. There are 0 loops. Total length of survey legs = 1180.04m (1180.04m adjusted) Total plan length of survey legs = 868.99m Total vertical length of survey legs = 522.64m Vertical range = 189.70m (from 21 at 2.59m to 185 at -187.11m) North-South range = 139.82m (from 261 at 16.42m to 242 at -123.40m) East-West range = 145.01m (from 196 at 34.11m to 231 at -110.90m) 32 1-nodes. 219 2-nodes. 19 3-nodes. 4 4-nodes. 1 5-node. #################### end of metapost log file #################### therion: error -- metapost exit code -- 256

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scale / base-scale question
by Jenny Black 13 Oct '04

13 Oct '04

Hi, >> How do I make underlying passage look paler than the main passage? > > > It is very simple: Adding in the "break"s within the maps worked well, thank you! Now I have another question to do with scaling... I want to print out the final survey at 1:500 (to be consistent with other caves in the area). However most of the cave passages are between 1 and 2m wide. I have noticed that you use 1:200 for drawing up passages of a similar width, and have therefore the symbol sizes have been designed accordingly. I tried several different combinations of scale and base-scale options, with the following results: 1) scale 1 500 * symbols (water and air flow arrows especially) are disproportionately large for the passage, the arrow heads of the water-flows are often larger than the passages they are in * wall lines seem very thick, and overshadow the smaller passages 2) scale 1 500 base-scale 1 200 * labels are small (but I can change that easily enough with the "fonts_setup" thing described in The Therionbook) * water-flow arrowheads are all wiggly rather than triangular * air-flow arrows and other symbols are great 3) scale 1 200 * symbols look good * but at 1:200, not 1:500, perhaps I could scale it in a graphics package before printing, though this seems like cheating! Any suggestions for how to create the best output? Thanks, Jenny

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2 Therion Questions
by Jenny Black 11 Oct '04

11 Oct '04

Hi, I have just started using Therion to draw up some cave found this summer. And I have a couple of things that I wondered if it would be possible to change. I apologise if they are things that I will get used to as I become more familiar with using Therion. When you draw lines there is the little yellow tick mark at the first line-point telling you which side is inside the wall, or down the pit, or whatever. Would it be possible to make the tick mark larger (maybe twice the size?), so it was easier to see? I managed to draw up quite a lot before realising it was there! Also, when you "insert scrap" in the map editor, it places the "scrap" "end scrap" lines wherever you currently are, which will probably be in the middle of the previous scrap you worked on. I don't know if it would be possible for it to check whether this was in the middle of scrap, and if so, automatically insert the new scrap after the current scrap, or above the "end of file" line? Thanks, Jenny

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