November 2020 - Therion

Re: [Therion] Point altitude/deph, Help !
by Xavier Robert 28 Jun '22

28 Jun '22

Hi all, I think I have found a trick. The other Xavier led me to the right tracks, thanks a lot ! Finally, this is quite simple with the point altitude, and no need to change anything inside the : - If we use the point altitude only with the option -align, we get the altitude - If we use the point altitude with the options -align and -value [-1004 m] where 1004 is the altitude of the main entrance, we print the depth only for that point (Do not forget the " - " before the altitude of the main entrance), and thus, we do not erase the classic point altitude. The only (small) limits are : * If the main entrance changes, we need to manually update ALL the points that print the depth. But that should not be be everyday, and not a big issue to do that. * the symbology of the two points is the same. I will have a look for a way to modify that and let you know if I find a trick (If I copy the code of the point Altitude, and call it p_u_depth(expr pos, R, S, A), it crashes...). Cheers, Xav

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How to calculate the volume of a cave
by Bill Gee 31 Jan '22

31 Jan '22

Hello everyone - What tools can be used to calculate the volume of a cave based on center line and LRUD data? I found an email from Martin Sluka from about 4 years ago describing how to use Loch to export a .lox file in other formats, then run that file through CloudCompare or ParaView. The process looks very complex to me, and besides - Loch does not run on my computers, so there is no way for me to generate an export. As far as I can tell, Survex does not have a way to calculate volume. Could it be done with a KML file and Google Earth? -- Bill Gee

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"\legendbox" "\loadpicture" and absolute paths
by rowena 14 Mar '21

14 Mar '21

Hello, I am using the "\loadpicture" capability in "\legendbox" constructs to include map sections, elevations, etc. It all works nicely on my PC where I am using relative paths to the pdf files. My club has a desire to archive the map data for posterity - ie if my pc dies or I go walkabout, the map data should still be available so that others can add to the maps as they are extended. I would prefer to have the images included using relative pathnames, rather than absolute pathnames, so that future explorers can download the map data and extend it, without having to duplicate my file hierarchy. How can I include relative paths in the \loadpicture functionality? Thanks, Rowena

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texts_rs and a remark about karren vs anastomosis
by ivana miskovic 09 Feb '21

09 Feb '21

Hello, Here I put the translation file of map outputs in Serbian language. It would be great if texts_rs.txt were compiled in next Therion release. Also, unrelated to the translation itself, during translation I found some confusion in point symbols for karren and for anastomosis. It seems like they are inverted. Karren are generally sharp limestone formations on the floor, and anastomosis are usually remain like rounded rock formations in the cave ceiling. Unfortunately, in the UIS official symbol list, karren and anastomoses were put on the same picture. Thanx and c u in next surveyes, Ivana

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statistics <explo/topo/carto/copyright> number untrapped error
by Bruce Mutton 21 Dec '20

21 Dec '20

Stacho Further to the untrapped error I mentioned last week… Looks like it is counting scraps correctly. The following statements… statistics carto all statistics carto-count hide (or on or off) … work perfectly. One thing that does seem to be a problem however. The syntax… statistics <explo/topo/carto/copyright> number … is giving me problems. They all seem to result in what seems to be an untrapped error, and truncating the therion.log file in random locations. For example this is what I have been trying… statistics topo 10 statistics topo-length hide I checked with the previous recent version, 552f923 and after removing all the carto-count statements, I get the same behaviour, an untrapped error. So I think the carto-count is working perfectly and I have just unearthed a different problem. Having left the problem for a few days (and rebooting a number of times) I thought I’d try my ‘top 10’ statistics layout (as in the attached LayoutStatisticsReporting.thc file). I ran my thconfig a number of times. For a given input, the point at which the log file truncates seems to be consistent. The file log5 is what I get with a successful compile with all of the statistics. The file log1 is what statistics <whatever> 10 gives me. Thinking that the scraps reported near either side of the log file truncation might be associated, I commented them out of the map. The file log04 shows what happens then – the truncation just occurs a few more characters along the file. Bruce

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Feature request - control over sort order for carto and copyright similar to explo and topo
by Bruce Mutton 11 Dec '20

11 Dec '20

Stacho Looks like it is counting scraps correctly. The following statements… statistics carto all statistics carto-count hide (or on or off) … work perfectly. One thing that does seem to be a problem however. The syntax… statistics <explo/topo/carto/copyright> number … is giving me problems. They all seem to result in what seems to be an untrapped error, and truncating the therion.log file in random locations. For example this is what I have been trying… statistics topo 10 statistics topo-length hide I checked with the previous recent version, 552f923 and after removing all the carto-count statements, I get the same behaviour, an untrapped error. So I think the carto-count is working perfectly and I have just unearthed a different problem. Have not yet tested statistics copyright-count. I presume it will be OK based on the success with carto-count. Bruce From: Therion <therion-bounces(a)speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Stacho Mudrak Sent: Friday, 20 November 2020 09:19 To: List for Therion users <therion(a)speleo.sk> Subject: Re: [Therion] Feature request - control over sort order for carto and copyright similar to explo and topo Hi Bruce, I have tried to implement your feature in the latest commit (it will take a while until win installer will be available), I was able to count by scraps - hope this is OK. Could you please check, whether it works as expected? S. On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 at 09:48, Bruce Mutton <bruce(a)tomo.co.nz <mailto:bruce@tomo.co.nz> > wrote: >From the Therion Book… • statistics <explo/topo/carto/copyright all/off/number> or • statistics <explo/topo-length on/hide/off> ▷ display some basic statistics; if set to oﬀ, team members are sorted alphabetically; otherwise according to their contribution to exploration and surveying (M, A; default: off) …and explained a little more completely here <https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/faq?s%5b%5d=statistics#why_do_peoples_names_…> ie on = sorts by length and shows the length with each person’s name; hide = sorts as above and does not show the lengths; off = sorts alphabetically and does not show the lengths. I have a feature request (unless we can already do this?). We have the option of sorting exploration and survey team members by the length of the passage centrelines that they have contributed to. Can we do a similar thing for scrap authors and copyrights? ie statistics <carto/copyright-count on/hide/off> where: on = sorts by number of scraps and surveys by a particular author, or number of scraps and surveys by a particular copyright, respectively, and displays the numbers; hide = sorts as above and does not show the numbers; off = sorts alphabetically by surname and does not show the numbers. This last setting matches the current behaviour for carto, and as I posted recently, the sort order for copyright seems to be unpredictable. Why do I want this feature? Because regularly I draw 98 scraps, and someone else will draw 2, and their name will be displayed in front because of the spelling of our names! Bruce _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion(a)speleo.sk <mailto:Therion@speleo.sk> https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

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FYI Therion explorer name and explored length counting insight
by Bruce Mutton 29 Nov '20

29 Nov '20

This is just an 'I should have known better' story, in case you are interested. Learnings about map output statistics (that are or probably should have been self-evident): This is for a cave where some plan scraps were drawn on the original centreline and were retained in the final map, when the entire original survey was made duplicate due to a subsequent more comprehensive survey that was flagged 'not-duplicate'. For the extended elevation scraps, these were all drawn on the subsequent 'not-duplicate' survey. 1. If a whole centreline is made 'flags duplicate' then the explorers names appear in the list, but not the length that they explored (it is shown as zero). You must (also) add the explorers to the corresponding 'not-duplicated' centreline to have their explored length credited! 2. Only the statistics for the centrelines that are (partly) included in scraps that are output are presented. For this plan map, where the duplicated centrelines are actually the ones for which the scraps are exported, the 'not-duplicate' centrelines did not have the explorer's names entered (repeated) and so their names are recorded, but their survey length is not. Lesson: Always record the original explorers in subsequent survey centrelines. This behaviour is nice because it alerts the author to a problem with their data entry. For this extended map, where the 'not-duplicate' surveys have scraps exported, but the duplicate surveys do not, the 'duplicate' explorers names are not presented. This is appropriate behaviour. But why is there a surveyor whose name appears with a zero length? I think it is because, for the entire 'not-duplicate' survey, I only contributed to one survey leg (and it is in its very own centreline) and this leg is a surface leg connecting the subsequent 'not-duplicate' survey to the original 'duplicate' survey. So my name is recorded as a surveyor, but I have no 'cave length' and Therion records zero. Possibly this is not ideal behaviour, but it would seem inconsistent to change it. Here is part of the html survey-list for the cave, with the statistics discussed above highlighted. I then thought that if I associated the cave survey with the plan and the elevation maps, the statistics might have been better (a feature that I was involved in requesting if I recall correctly). They are. For the plan, there is no change (I still need to add the original explorers to the 'not-duplicate' centrelines). And for the extended elevation, the duplicate zero length explorers names are brought in, as have the surveyors for the centrelines for which there are no scraps. It matches the plan statistics. Perfect (once I fix my centreline metadata as mentioned above). Bruce

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testing control over sort order for copyright-count
by Bruce Mutton 25 Nov '20

25 Nov '20

Stacho My first two test runs of copyright counting and sorting appeared to go OK, as below. However the third shows up an anomaly. Adding a second copyright to one or two scraps results in that copyright counting as zero (0). If I remove the first copyright from each of those scraps, leaving just the second, there is no change to either of the counts ie (32) and (0). And then I make further changes as described below, and the output is sometimes updated, but other times not. Part of this is consistent with me making a mistake in my testing, but it seems repeatable just now, and is perhaps consistent with one of the effects that I posted on 1 November, and copied below. Authors (carto) are always counted correctly. Copyright counting appears random and usually wrong. I'm not sure there are actually 32 NZSS copyrights, but I guess that is something I should manually check. I'll reboot and try again tonight! Bruce statistics carto all # all/off/number statistics carto-count on # on/off/hide statistics copyright all # all/off/number statistics copyright-count off # on/off/hide Copyright alpha-sorted. This is expected behaviour. statistics carto all # all/off/number statistics carto-count on # on/off/hide statistics copyright all # all/off/number statistics copyright-count hide # on/off/hide Copy-right count-sorted and count hidden. This is expected behaviour. statistics carto all # all/off/number statistics carto-count on # on/off/hide statistics copyright all # all/off/number statistics copyright-count on # on/off/hide Copyright count-sorted and count shown, but note that: - count of NSG is (0) regardless of whether there are 1 or 2 scraps with NSG and whether those scraps have only NSG or both NSG and NZSS set, - count of NZSS is (32) regardless of whether copyright NZSS is removed and replaced with NSG for two of the scraps. .but after adding an author. . the authors are correctly listed . the NSG copyright-count is (1) when there are two NSG copyrights! . the NZSS copy-right-count is (32) when there should be two less, as I removed two of them!! On removing an author. . the authors are still correctly listed, but . NSG copyright is still (1) when it should be (2) . NZSS copyright has reduced to (31) when it would seem it should be (30) From: Therion <therion-bounces(a)speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton Sent: Sunday, 1 November 2020 15:48 To: 'List for Therion users' <therion(a)speleo.sk> Subject: [Therion] copyright for survey centrelines not recognised For many years I have been adding a copyright date and text string to each of my scraps and survey centrelines. Always the same text string, and the date according to when the scrap and centreline was created. Always with the same result - a statistic in the pdf export that includes the string and a date range. Just now I broke with tradition, and added a new string to a centreline. To my surprise the new copyright did not appear in the output. After a little experimentation I have come to come tentative conclusions. 1. Copyrights added to survey centrelines are not added to the statistics in pdf exports that include only survey centrelines. 2. Copyrights added to survey centrelines are not added to the statistics in pdf exports that include maps. 3. Copyright strings (different to the majority) added to scraps in large projects may not be added to statistics in pdf exports. In smaller projects they are however. 4. Copyrights sorting in the pdf output is unpredictable. It is not according to spelling A to Z, but changing the spelling changes the output sorting. It is not according to date, changing the date does not change the sort order. In all these examples, there are a number of scraps with "NZSS" as the copyright string, and there is only one example of the other string ("NSG" or "caves.org.nz" respectively. So the sort order is also not related to the number of instances of the same string, because sometimes NZSS sorts first, and sometimes last. Any one have insights or experience with this?

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Feature request - control over sort order for carto and copyright similar to explo and topo
by Bruce Mutton 20 Nov '20

20 Nov '20

>From the Therion Book… • statistics <explo/topo/carto/copyright all/off/number> or • statistics <explo/topo-length on/hide/off> ▷ display some basic statistics; if set to oﬀ, team members are sorted alphabetically; otherwise according to their contribution to exploration and surveying (M, A; default: off) …and explained a little more completely here <https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/faq?s%5b%5d=statistics#why_do_peoples_names_…> ie on = sorts by length and shows the length with each person’s name; hide = sorts as above and does not show the lengths; off = sorts alphabetically and does not show the lengths. I have a feature request (unless we can already do this?). We have the option of sorting exploration and survey team members by the length of the passage centrelines that they have contributed to. Can we do a similar thing for scrap authors and copyrights? ie statistics <carto/copyright-count on/hide/off> where: on = sorts by number of scraps and surveys by a particular author, or number of scraps and surveys by a particular copyright, respectively, and displays the numbers; hide = sorts as above and does not show the numbers; off = sorts alphabetically by surname and does not show the numbers. This last setting matches the current behaviour for carto, and as I posted recently, the sort order for copyright seems to be unpredictable. Why do I want this feature? Because regularly I draw 98 scraps, and someone else will draw 2, and their name will be displayed in front because of the spelling of our names! Bruce

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map-connection does not display if map is both offset and not offset
by Bruce Mutton 16 Nov '20

16 Nov '20

The more I look at the behaviour the more I think it is either a bug, or at best, unhelpful behaviour. I have a workaround that minimises the mess, simply by offsetting both scraps, one by 100 mm and the other by the desired offset distance. map FinalMap Map1 [000.1 000] above # to emulate map drawn in proper location but without disabling display of map-connection symbols Map2 [050 000] above # to draw the map in offset as well endmap I experimented with using ‘none’ in place of ‘above’, but that made no difference to whether the map-connection symbols are displayed. Bruce From: Therion <therion-bounces(a)speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton Sent: Monday, 16 November 2020 10:04 To: 'List for Therion users' <therion(a)speleo.sk> Subject: [Therion] map-connection does not display if map is both offset and not offset Thanks for the suggestion Marco. I think what you suggest is what I was already doing, however I decided to try yet another level of hierarchical separation, but it also did not work. However I think the effect you are pointing me to is what is in-play here https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/mapconnectors?s[]=offset <https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/mapconnectors?s%5b%5d=offset> I’ll tinker with it some more… For me it is really only a debug process while I am drawing, so it is best if it soes not require special structures to activate and deactivate. Bruce From: Therion <therion-bounces(a)speleo.sk <mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk> > On Behalf Of Marco Corvi Sent: Monday, 16 November 2020 09:07 To: therion(a)speleo.sk <mailto:therion@speleo.sk> Subject: Re: [Therion] : map-connection does not display if map is both offset and not offset @bruce that was a nice remark. i think that if you put scrap1 in map1 and scrap2 in map2, and then combine in a final map containing map1 map2 […] above/below map2 and select the final map, then you get scrap1 and scrap2 in place, and also scrap2 offseted and the map-connection line marco I just discovered some behaviour that I did not expect. When a scrap has a point map-connection, any exports of that scrap have a dotted line from the 'true' location of the point map-location to the 'offset' location. Right? These two examples show what is expected. The first with a single copy of an offset map, and the second with two offset copies of the map. However, if there is also a copy of the map that is not offset, then all of the map-connection points are hidden. I tried using the -visibility on option for the point map-connection, that that had no effect. The image below shows an example of this behaviour. Although it is not very often that I want to show a map both in its proper location and offset, it seems to me that one should be able to do it and also have the map-connection points display properly for the offset maps. Is this a bug perhaps? Bruce

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