Hello everyone - What tools can be used to calculate the volume of a cave based on center line and LRUD data? I found an email from Martin Sluka from about 4 years ago describing how to use Loch to export a .lox file in other formats, then run that file through CloudCompare or ParaView. The process looks very complex to me, and besides - Loch does not run on my computers, so there is no way for me to generate an export. As far as I can tell, Survex does not have a way to calculate volume. Could it be done with a KML file and Google Earth? -- Bill Gee
It would be awesome if the compiler could derive this fron the loch model and write it to the statistics block (the one where also loop closure info and total west/east and north/south dimwnsions are returned) when compiling this, as the neccessary data should be already present?
Am 09.08.2019 um 14:58 schrieb Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net>:
Hello everyone -
What tools can be used to calculate the volume of a cave based on center line and LRUD data?
I found an email from Martin Sluka from about 4 years ago describing how to use Loch to export a .lox file in other formats, then run that file through CloudCompare or ParaView. The process looks very complex to me, and besides - Loch does not run on my computers, so there is no way for me to generate an export.
As far as I can tell, Survex does not have a way to calculate volume.
Could it be done with a KML file and Google Earth?
-- Bill Gee
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Hi, I am also interested on volume calculation! Please keep me updated it!
On 11 Aug 2019, at 22:22, Benedikt Hallinger <beni@hallinger.org> wrote:
It would be awesome if the compiler could derive this fron the loch model and write it to the statistics block (the one where also loop closure info and total west/east and north/south dimwnsions are returned) when compiling this, as the neccessary data should be already present?
Am 09.08.2019 um 14:58 schrieb Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net>:
Hello everyone -
What tools can be used to calculate the volume of a cave based on center line and LRUD data?
I found an email from Martin Sluka from about 4 years ago describing how to use Loch to export a .lox file in other formats, then run that file through CloudCompare or ParaView. The process looks very complex to me, and besides - Loch does not run on my computers, so there is no way for me to generate an export.
As far as I can tell, Survex does not have a way to calculate volume.
Could it be done with a KML file and Google Earth?
-- Bill Gee
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Update: After poking around a bit, I discovered that Compass will calculate cave volume based on centerline and LRUD data. Doing that means I have to run a Windows computer (ugh!) and type in the survey data twice (double ugh!) Fortunately the cave for which I need this is small. Can this feature be added as a suggestion for future versions of Survex? Compass does quite a few other calculations. For example, it will calculate the volume of the bounding box. A sample report is attached. It is nice that the report is in both meters and feet. -- Bill Gee On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 10:49:32 AM CDT chris pennos wrote:
Hi, I am also interested on volume calculation!
Please keep me updated it!
On 11 Aug 2019, at 22:22, Benedikt Hallinger <beni@hallinger.org> wrote:
It would be awesome if the compiler could derive this fron the loch model and write it to the statistics block (the one where also loop closure info and total west/east and north/south dimwnsions are returned) when compiling this, as the neccessary data should be already present?
Am 09.08.2019 um 14:58 schrieb Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net>:
Hello everyone -
What tools can be used to calculate the volume of a cave based on center line and LRUD data?
I found an email from Martin Sluka from about 4 years ago describing how to use Loch to export a .lox file in other formats, then run that file through CloudCompare or ParaView. The process looks very complex to me, and besides - Loch does not run on my computers, so there is no way for me to generate an export.
As far as I can tell, Survex does not have a way to calculate volume.
Could it be done with a KML file and Google Earth?
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 04:38:20PM -0500, Bill Gee wrote:
Update: After poking around a bit, I discovered that Compass will calculate cave volume based on centerline and LRUD data. Doing that means I have to run a Windows computer (ugh!) and type in the survey data twice (double ugh!) Fortunately the cave for which I need this is small.
Can this feature be added as a suggestion for future versions of Survex?
There's a ticket open already: https://trac.survex.com/ticket/80 Julian sketched out what needs doing there, but didn't actually provide a patch (or else I'd have applied it by now). But Therion could do a better job here as it has the drawn passage walls to work from. Cheers, Olly
Hi Bill May be you are looking for this ... !? cheers, Torsten
---------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---------- Von: Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> An: therion@speleo.sk Datum: 14.08.2019 23:38 Betreff: Re: [Therion] How to calculate the volume of a cave
Update: After poking around a bit, I discovered that Compass will calculate cave volume based on centerline and LRUD data. Doing that means I have to run a Windows computer (ugh!) and type in the survey data twice (double ugh!) Fortunately the cave for which I need this is small.
Can this feature be added as a suggestion for future versions of Survex?
Compass does quite a few other calculations. For example, it will calculate the volume of the bounding box. A sample report is attached. It is nice that the report is in both meters and feet.
-- Bill Gee
On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 10:49:32 AM CDT chris pennos wrote:
Hi, I am also interested on volume calculation!
Please keep me updated it!
On 11 Aug 2019, at 22:22, Benedikt Hallinger <beni@hallinger.org> wrote:
It would be awesome if the compiler could derive this fron the loch model and write it to the statistics block (the one where also loop closure info and total west/east and north/south dimwnsions are returned) when compiling this, as the neccessary data should be already present?
Am 09.08.2019 um 14:58 schrieb Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net>:
Hello everyone -
What tools can be used to calculate the volume of a cave based on center line and LRUD data?
I found an email from Martin Sluka from about 4 years ago describing how to use Loch to export a .lox file in other formats, then run that file through CloudCompare or ParaView. The process looks very complex to me, and besides - Loch does not run on my computers, so there is no way for me to generate an export.
As far as I can tell, Survex does not have a way to calculate volume.
Could it be done with a KML file and Google Earth?
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Ha! Torsten, you are a magician. Thanks! That was indeed exactly how I calculated this. I had completely forgotten about it. Fortunately the data file still exists on my Windows virtual machine, and Compass produces the number I need to defend. I now know how to reproduce the calculation. Breathing a huge sigh of relief ... ======== Bill Gee On Friday, January 28, 2022 6:40:00 AM CST Torsten Schnitter wrote:
Hi Bill
May be you are looking for this ... !?
cheers, Torsten
---------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---------- Von: Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> An: therion@speleo.sk Datum: 14.08.2019 23:38 Betreff: Re: [Therion] How to calculate the volume of a cave
Update: After poking around a bit, I discovered that Compass will calculate cave volume based on centerline and LRUD data. Doing that means I have to run a Windows computer (ugh!) and type in the survey data twice (double ugh!) Fortunately the cave for which I need this is small.
Can this feature be added as a suggestion for future versions of Survex?
Compass does quite a few other calculations. For example, it will calculate the volume of the bounding box. A sample report is attached. It is nice that the report is in both meters and feet.
Hi, I am also interested on volume calculation!
Please keep me updated it!
On 11 Aug 2019, at 22:22, Benedikt Hallinger <beni@hallinger.org> wrote:
It would be awesome if the compiler could derive this fron the loch model and write it to the statistics block (the one where also loop closure info and total west/east and north/south dimwnsions are returned) when compiling this, as the neccessary data should be already present?
Am 09.08.2019 um 14:58 schrieb Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net>:
Hello everyone -
What tools can be used to calculate the volume of a cave based on center line and LRUD data?
I found an email from Martin Sluka from about 4 years ago describing how to use Loch to export a .lox file in other formats, then run that file through CloudCompare or ParaView. The process looks very complex to me, and besides - Loch does not run on my computers, so there is no way for me to generate an export.
As far as I can tell, Survex does not have a way to calculate volume.
Could it be done with a KML file and Google Earth?
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Hi Bill, Torsten, What is that file; is it a standard output file from Therion or Survex? Best regards Ben Sent from my iPhone
On 28 Jan 2022, at 12:57, Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> wrote:
Ha! Torsten, you are a magician. Thanks!
That was indeed exactly how I calculated this. I had completely forgotten about it. Fortunately the data file still exists on my Windows virtual machine, and Compass produces the number I need to defend. I now know how to reproduce the calculation.
Breathing a huge sigh of relief ...
======== Bill Gee
On Friday, January 28, 2022 6:40:00 AM CST Torsten Schnitter wrote: Hi Bill
May be you are looking for this ... !?
cheers, Torsten
---------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---------- Von: Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> An: therion@speleo.sk Datum: 14.08.2019 23:38 Betreff: Re: [Therion] How to calculate the volume of a cave
Update: After poking around a bit, I discovered that Compass will calculate cave volume based on centerline and LRUD data. Doing that means I have to run a Windows computer (ugh!) and type in the survey data twice (double ugh!) Fortunately the cave for which I need this is small.
Can this feature be added as a suggestion for future versions of Survex?
Compass does quite a few other calculations. For example, it will calculate the volume of the bounding box. A sample report is attached. It is nice that the report is in both meters and feet.
Hi, I am also interested on volume calculation!
Please keep me updated it!
On 11 Aug 2019, at 22:22, Benedikt Hallinger <beni@hallinger.org> wrote:
It would be awesome if the compiler could derive this fron the loch model and write it to the statistics block (the one where also loop closure info and total west/east and north/south dimwnsions are returned) when compiling this, as the neccessary data should be already present?
Am 09.08.2019 um 14:58 schrieb Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net>:
Hello everyone -
What tools can be used to calculate the volume of a cave based on center line and LRUD data?
I found an email from Martin Sluka from about 4 years ago describing how to use Loch to export a .lox file in other formats, then run that file through CloudCompare or ParaView. The process looks very complex to me, and besides - Loch does not run on my computers, so there is no way for me to generate an export.
As far as I can tell, Survex does not have a way to calculate volume.
Could it be done with a KML file and Google Earth?
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Hi Ben - The data file I refer to is a Compass file containing centerline and LRUD data from the cave. It is not from either Therion or Survex. In this case the cave is very small, only 50 meters, and there are only 14 survey stations. Retyping it into a Compass data file did not take long. Compass and MeshLab do very different calculations to come up with volume. For my cave Compass gives about 2900 cubic feet and MeshLab gives over 20,000 cubic feet (about 585 cubic meters). Compass is doing a simple calculation based on polygons and using only centerline plus LRUD. MeshLab is a much more complex calculation based on a 3D model of triangles. Ultimately its calculation can be traces back to centerline, LRUD, walls, passage height objects and cross sections. Therion uses all of that to build a .lox file which, through translations, becomes the MeshLab file. ======== Bill Gee On Saturday, January 29, 2022 3:42:33 AM CST Ben Cooper wrote:
Hi Bill, Torsten, What is that file; is it a standard output file from Therion or Survex? Best regards Ben
Sent from my iPhone
On 28 Jan 2022, at 12:57, Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> wrote:
Ha! Torsten, you are a magician. Thanks!
That was indeed exactly how I calculated this. I had completely forgotten about it. Fortunately the data file still exists on my Windows virtual machine, and Compass produces the number I need to defend. I now know how to reproduce the calculation.
Breathing a huge sigh of relief ...
======== Bill Gee
On Friday, January 28, 2022 6:40:00 AM CST Torsten Schnitter wrote: Hi Bill
May be you are looking for this ... !?
cheers, Torsten
---------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---------- Von: Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> An: therion@speleo.sk Datum: 14.08.2019 23:38 Betreff: Re: [Therion] How to calculate the volume of a cave
Update: After poking around a bit, I discovered that Compass will calculate cave volume based on centerline and LRUD data. Doing that means I have to run a Windows computer (ugh!) and type in the survey data twice (double ugh!) Fortunately the cave for which I need this is small.
Can this feature be added as a suggestion for future versions of Survex?
Compass does quite a few other calculations. For example, it will calculate the volume of the bounding box. A sample report is attached. It is nice that the report is in both meters and feet.
Hi, I am also interested on volume calculation!
Please keep me updated it!
On 11 Aug 2019, at 22:22, Benedikt Hallinger <beni@hallinger.org> wrote:
It would be awesome if the compiler could derive this fron the loch model and write it to the statistics block (the one where also loop closure info and total west/east and north/south dimwnsions are returned) when compiling this, as the neccessary data should be already present?
> Am 09.08.2019 um 14:58 schrieb Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net>: > > Hello everyone - > > What tools can be used to calculate the volume of a cave based on center line and LRUD data? > > I found an email from Martin Sluka from about 4 years ago describing how to use Loch to export a .lox file in other formats, then run that file through CloudCompare or ParaView. The process looks very complex to me, and besides - Loch does not run on my computers, so there is no way for me to generate an export. > > As far as I can tell, Survex does not have a way to calculate volume. > > Could it be done with a KML file and Google Earth? > _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Thanks Bill. Wow that’s quite a difference between the two techniques! I know such volume calculations are just an estimate but it would be a lovely feature to have in Therion! Sent from my iPhone
On 29 Jan 2022, at 11:41, Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> wrote:
Hi Ben -
The data file I refer to is a Compass file containing centerline and LRUD data from the cave. It is not from either Therion or Survex.
In this case the cave is very small, only 50 meters, and there are only 14 survey stations. Retyping it into a Compass data file did not take long.
Compass and MeshLab do very different calculations to come up with volume. For my cave Compass gives about 2900 cubic feet and MeshLab gives over 20,000 cubic feet (about 585 cubic meters). Compass is doing a simple calculation based on polygons and using only centerline plus LRUD. MeshLab is a much more complex calculation based on a 3D model of triangles. Ultimately its calculation can be traces back to centerline, LRUD, walls, passage height objects and cross sections. Therion uses all of that to build a .lox file which, through translations, becomes the MeshLab file.
======== Bill Gee
On Saturday, January 29, 2022 3:42:33 AM CST Ben Cooper wrote: Hi Bill, Torsten, What is that file; is it a standard output file from Therion or Survex? Best regards Ben
Sent from my iPhone
On 28 Jan 2022, at 12:57, Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> wrote:
Ha! Torsten, you are a magician. Thanks!
That was indeed exactly how I calculated this. I had completely forgotten about it. Fortunately the data file still exists on my Windows virtual machine, and Compass produces the number I need to defend. I now know how to reproduce the calculation.
Breathing a huge sigh of relief ...
======== Bill Gee
On Friday, January 28, 2022 6:40:00 AM CST Torsten Schnitter wrote: Hi Bill
May be you are looking for this ... !?
cheers, Torsten
---------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---------- Von: Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> An: therion@speleo.sk Datum: 14.08.2019 23:38 Betreff: Re: [Therion] How to calculate the volume of a cave
Update: After poking around a bit, I discovered that Compass will calculate cave volume based on centerline and LRUD data. Doing that means I have to run a Windows computer (ugh!) and type in the survey data twice (double ugh!) Fortunately the cave for which I need this is small.
In this case the cave is very small, only 50 meters, and there are only 14 survey stations. Retyping it into a Compass data file did not take long.
Compass and MeshLab do very different calculations to come up with volume. For my cave Compass gives about 2900 cubic feet and MeshLab gives over 20,000 cubic feet (about 585 cubic meters). Compass is doing a simple calculation based on polygons and using only centerline plus LRUD. MeshLab is a much more complex calculation based on a 3D model of triangles. Ultimately its calculation can be traces back to centerline, LRUD, walls, passage height objects and cross sections. Therion uses all of that to build a .lox file which, through translations, becomes the MeshLab file.
If it's that short, I would be tempted to do it manually, for a kind of sanity check. Pretend it's a cave made up from cuboids. Take the cross sectional area for each station (passage height * width), calculate the cuboid volume for each leg. See if it closer to one of the other. The MeshLab version seems like it might be doubling (or more) up, because of the way Therion generates cave tubes and passages from multiple overlapping 3D shapes, not a single "tube". One tube for the leg, then extra 3D shapes layered into the same 3D space for the wall drawings. If MeshLab is treating those as separate entities, rather than just the overall outer volume, then it will get a vastly larger measurement.
Hi, vtk that is used by loch has a volume calculation filter. I created Tools->Survey statistics dialog in the latest commit, where volume for LRUD envelope and scrap walls is calculated separately. Hopefully, it will give some reasonable numbers. There is still a problem, that if there is 3D data interpolated from splay shots - they self intersect a lot. They are exported as scraps, so with these data, it will probably give unrealistic large numbers. S. On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 at 00:43, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion < therion@speleo.sk> wrote:
In this case the cave is very small, only 50 meters, and there are only 14 survey stations. Retyping it into a Compass data file did not take long.
Compass and MeshLab do very different calculations to come up with volume. For my cave Compass gives about 2900 cubic feet and MeshLab gives over 20,000 cubic feet (about 585 cubic meters). Compass is doing a simple calculation based on polygons and using only centerline plus LRUD. MeshLab is a much more complex calculation based on a 3D model of triangles. Ultimately its calculation can be traces back to centerline, LRUD, walls, passage height objects and cross sections. Therion uses all of that to build a .lox file which, through translations, becomes the MeshLab file.
If it's that short, I would be tempted to do it manually, for a kind of sanity check. Pretend it's a cave made up from cuboids. Take the cross sectional area for each station (passage height * width), calculate the cuboid volume for each leg. See if it closer to one of the other.
The MeshLab version seems like it might be doubling (or more) up, because of the way Therion generates cave tubes and passages from multiple overlapping 3D shapes, not a single "tube". One tube for the leg, then extra 3D shapes layered into the same 3D space for the wall drawings. If MeshLab is treating those as separate entities, rather than just the overall outer volume, then it will get a vastly larger measurement. _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
participants (8)
-
Ben Cooper -
Benedikt Hallinger -
Bill Gee -
chris pennos -
Olly Betts -
Stacho Mudrak -
Tarquin Wilton-Jones -
Torsten Schnitter