October 2019 - Therion

Kml export with various data types
by Xavier Robert 30 Oct '19

30 Oct '19

Hi all, I also have some problems with the kml export of a single cave, with several input data files: * If I have one .th file with classic LRUD data and an other one with splays (and no LRUD) directly imported from Topodroid, the map-kml file is OK, the pdf export is ok, but the model-kml only renders the data with LRUD * In that case, the stats written in the kml file only concern the date with LRUD, and the data from Topodroid are not taken in account. I join you in attachment a recent example, with one Datafile. I am using Therion 5.4.4 under MacOs 10.14. Do I make a mistake somewhere, or is-it a bug in Therion kml export ? Does any one have a clue to solve that? Cheers, Xavier

1 0

Export Multiple Caves to Single KML Model
by Scott Falkingham 30 Oct '19

30 Oct '19

Hi Folks, Is it supported to export a model of multiple caves to a single KML file? When I attempt the export, the entrance placemarks of both caves show up, but only the first sourced caves centerline is exported. Not only that, all of the placemarks are grouped in a single folder. Conversely, exporting a cave-list of multiple caves to KML works as expected, with both caves showing up in individual folders. Thanks. Scott

4 6

Therion draw line survey in atlas
by Bruce Mutton 23 Oct '19

23 Oct '19

As Martin's post suggests, it is a manual process. Each time you change the layout of your export, add or subtract from the selected passages, or change the origin of your atlas, the pagination may change. Therefore if you make changes, you should comment out the exclude statement briefly and make sure your 'excludes' are still valid. If you have an annoying short bit of passage on one page, you should be able to modify the origin to try for a 'best fit. Here is an extract from a layout that manages a number of possible outputs. #Set co-ord system and position of map on the atlas tessellation #------------------------------------- cs EPSG:27200 #NZ Map Grid 1949 # grid-co-ords all # use to locate tessellation within cs grid origin-label 1 A #label type <across> <down> 2 A gives A1, 1 A gives A0, 0 A gives A-1 #origin = co-ords of lower left corner of first atlas page #origin -150 -700 -100 metres # survey D # origin 2500900 6022550 380 metres # for Celebration 1000 Atlas July 2011 #origin 2501060 6023550 380 metres # for Celebration 1000 A3Landscape Atlas Oct 2011 # origin 2501100 6022400 380 metres # for Inception 2000 A3Landscape Atlas Aug 2011 # PAGE EXCLUSIONS # page numbers are relative - not including the title pages #---------------- #exclude-pages on [1,7] # for Celebration 1000 A3Landscape Atlas Oct 2011 # exclude-pages on 2 # for Inception 2000 A3Landscape Atlas Aug 2011 # exclude-pages on [1-5, 7-12, 15-18, 21-23, 27-30, 33-38, 41-42, 48-51, 57-61, 64-69] # exclude-pages on [1-8, 11-12, 16-19, 23-25, 29-36] Some useful resources... https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/templates#atlas_specific https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/tips#atlas_layout_parameter_calculator Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Therion <therion-bounces(a)speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Philippe Vernant Sent: Thursday, 24 October 2019 03:37 To: List for Therion users <therion(a)speleo.sk> Subject: [Therion] Therion draw line survey in atlas Hi guys, I’m trying to draw an atlas of the survey lines (the scraps are not drawn yet). But when I do that I have the pages with the lines but also the pages without. Is there a way to toggle something up so I will have my survey lines atlas without the blank pages ? Thanks, Phil _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion(a)speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

2 1

Therion draw line survey in atlas
by Philippe Vernant 23 Oct '19

23 Oct '19

Hi guys, I’m trying to draw an atlas of the survey lines (the scraps are not drawn yet). But when I do that I have the pages with the lines but also the pages without. Is there a way to toggle something up so I will have my survey lines atlas without the blank pages ? Thanks, Phil

2 1

NoScrapStations project (scrap without stations)
by Bruce Mutton 15 Oct '19

15 Oct '19

Further to the recent 'scrap without stations' posts. Here is a long and tedious transcript of my investigations to find out how a Therion project with scraps that have no point stations produces an apparently coherent pdf output. I conclude that while many of the outputs are perfectly OK, including the survey centreline, the pdf map output is not to the correct scale and it is perhaps not in the correct geospatial location. I don't know how or why it works at all. I have not included any specific details of the project, as the data is not mine and it is not in the public domain. All tested with Therion 5.4.4+db62e22 (2019-06-25). Any insights anyone has on this would be appreciated. Bruce The NoScrapStations project scraps are defined without any point stations in the scraps. This is highly unusual, and so interesting to investigate how the scraps get scaled and mapped to the centreline. Originally there was little explicit link between the survey network and the scraps - the survey and th2 files were referenced as separate sources, except that the main th2 file was also referenced in the th file (a double up). Removing the doubled-up reference in the th file (in rev 2.1.1) made no difference. Removing the xvi from th2 makes no difference to the outputs. The exported map kml, model lox (and probably caves.html) did not produce legible output (large Loch bounding box - 200km north-south, or nonsense coordinates). Aven output is fine. The project is georeferenced to lat-long coordinates, and therion.log reports an appropriate UTM output coord system. Other characteristics of the project include; * The whole 5km cave was surveyed by hand, and manually entered into Therion as a single survey with 17 closed loops (typical error 2% to 5%, or 5 to 8 std deviations if BCRA5, or 1 to 2 std deviation at BCRA3) * The whole cave is drawn in a single th2 file over an xvi (for the whole cave); 7 plan scraps and many projection none scraps. OK there is one other th2 file that contains a single scrap and a projection none scrap. * There is only one scrap specified as projection plan, all the others are undefined (although Therion assumes these to be 'plan') Rev 2.1.4 moves th2 files from sources in thconfig-NoScrapStations.thc to be input inside of 'trip' file (NoScrapStations.th) and outside of survey (SAMD-ITF-OS). No apparent changes in any outputs -same issues described above, so the problem seems not to relate to data structure. These examples (below) as at project rev 3 Export with map12 (whole cave) selected (as per original submission) -scraps are joined (despite not all being contiguous in the th2 file) -scrap average distortions zero (maximal 0.1 and 0.2%) from therion.log -debug (all) confirms graphically that scraps are undistorted Perhaps the (selected) map (of the whole cave) is morphed to the centreline (or perhaps to each other), as scrap 108 is joined to the adjacent scraps (scrap 108 is drawn offset from its xvi centreline)? However the combination of examples below tends to disprove this. Export with no maps or surveys selected -scraps are NOT necessarily joined - example is scrap 108 which is drawn offset from the xvi background image. -scrap average distortions zero (maximal 0.1 and 0.2%) from therion.log -debug (all) confirms graphically that scraps are undistorted Default Therion behaviour is that ALL surveys and scraps are selected if none are explicitly selected. Seems like maybe no mapping of one to the other is done in this example, as indicated by the disjointed scrap 108 below. Export with map of survey (wholecavePLANCL) selected - survey seems to match the shape of the scraps - centreline pdf generated at 1:1000 scale (matches scale 1 1000 chosen). Why is this output 1.6 times taller than the scrap-based output examples above? They cannot BOTH be 1:1000! Interrogating Aven output tells us that horizontal extent of cave is 2.143 km, therefore a 1000 pdf should be a bit longer than 2.2m long (matches the image below), and a 500 pdf around 4.4m long (matches the image below that). - centreline pdf generated at 1:500 scale (matches scale 1 500 chosen). Note this is more than twice as big as scrap-based outputs, and is near pdf limit of 5m page size. Conclude that the scrap-based outputs are being generated at about 1:750 or 1:1500, despite the scale statement requesting 1:500 or 1: 1000. Interesting thing is that the scalebars generated by Therion on the pages show the correct length, only the maps are two thirds of what they should be. Export with map12 (whole cave) and with map of survey (wholecavePLANCL) selected - Therion crashes out with an error message "Map is too large for PDF format. Try smaller scale!" - up scale to 1 100,000, and metapost crashes (error 2), I assume divide by zero due to rounding in one of the symbols is the root cause. - The boundary between these two error states is between 1 37000 and 1 40000, I did not find a scale that produced a pdf output. Conclude, well a guess, Therion is plotting the survey centreline at the correct scale and in the correct location (model kml confirms this), and it is plotting the scraps (that have no point stations) at the wrong scale (a bit small), and in the wrong location (maybe 8,500 km away based on the magnitude of the coordinate list output). The xvi background image used to draw the scraps was produced by Therion, so all of the loops have been 'pre-closed'. This is consistent with the scraps having zero distortion, while the survey misclosures are large. I have yet to try the obvious, and add some point stations to each of the scraps, I presume that once each of the scraps has at least two stations, all will fit into place. END

1 0

scrap without stations keeps the original sketch in Topodroid
by עמרי גסטר 13 Oct '19

13 Oct '19

Hi all, I want to raise a question I've been having with my self... when I'm in the cave I use Topodroid to make the sketch. when I export the map in Therion with "debug on" I see the changes that Therion makes which make the final map different from the sketch I made in Topodroid (sometimes it is a big difference). a few days ago I noticed that if I make a new scrap and move all the map elements that I draw except the stations, the map turns out exactly as I draw it on Topodroid. As I understand it, Therion change the map to overcome or compensate errors or Deviations, especially when there are loops involved, but wouldn't it be more accurate to stick to the original sketch that I drew with Topodroid in the cave? what do you think? Omri Gaster

7 10

Re: [Therion] scrap without stations keeps the original sketch in Topodroid
by Bruce Mutton 12 Oct '19

12 Oct '19

Omri OK, so the distortion looks like a problem with a station name – look around the black or yellow dots. If you fix that perhaps the scrap with stations will work. Interesting how the -projection plan scrap without point stations is plotting as though it were perhaps -projection none (like a section). What happens if you create a lox file or export a map to kml? My guess is that you will have the problems described in these posts (lox box too big and kml plots centreline (model) but never a scrap outline (map)). https://www.mail-archive.com/therion@speleo.sk/msg07689.html https://www.mail-archive.com/therion@speleo.sk/msg07683.html Bruce From: Therion <therion-bounces(a)speleo.sk> On Behalf Of ???? ???? Sent: Tuesday, 8 October 2019 05:00 To: List for Therion users <therion(a)speleo.sk> Subject: Re: [Therion] ***UNCHECKED*** RE: scrap without stations keeps the original sketch in Topodroid Here is an example of what I mean: the cave I'll show is a pit and I made plan sketches as a horizontal sections. The extended profile turned out good. one of the plan sketches is distorted as you can see here: The original scrap is Kimron-1_15Xp, the new scrap is scrap26, so, I moved all the map elements except the stations, so now my scrap look like this ( the stations still exists in the .th file): scrap Kimron-1_15Xp -projection plan -scale [0 0 20 0 0 0 1 0 m] point 146.75 -130.52 station -name "1_9" point 162.64 -129.64 station -name "1_10" point 186.31 -124.43 station -name "1_11" point 198.19 -127.12 station -name "1_12" point 176.97 -115.01 station -name "1_13" point 191.00 -109.43 station -name "1_14" point 194.21 -92.76 station -name "1_15" point 182.67 -112.46 station -name "1_16" point 186.84 -71.79 station -name "1_17" endscrap scrap scrap26 -projection plan -scale [0 0 20 0 0 0 1 0 m] line wall -close on..... when I ran scrap26 the map is correct: I used this Technic several times and it worked every time. On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 12:23 PM Bruce Mutton <bruce(a)tomo.co.nz <mailto:bruce@tomo.co.nz> > wrote: Omri, Alastair I would have thought it almost impossible to draw a whole cave without any point stations in the th2 files, but yesterday a colleague who just self-taught themselves Therion presented me with a 5km long cave that has no point stations defined in the th2 (it has survey stations of course, just not drawn in the scraps). It is also one of the better looking Therion maps I have come across. I have yet to pick it apart to see why it works and what the implications are. My suspicion is that it does not properly morph the sketches to the survey network. In response to Omri’s question – if your survey is perfect, and the field sketch as well, then of course an unmorphed drawing will be just fine. If you have a real survey and sketch, subject to distortions due to loop closures over multiple trips (multiple files), then the loops will not match, and the drawing will need to be morphed due to loop closures and due to scrap joins where the scraps are in different files or different locations in the same file. If, when using Topodroid, as I have seen people over here do, you accumulate all of your survey trips in a single file, and end up with one huge sketch for the cave, in which you manually compensate for any misclosures, then Therion has nothing much left to do. In that case, it might be fine to do as you describe. Until someone finds the next big breakthrough passage, then it may or may not be. Bruce From: Therion <therion-bounces(a)speleo.sk <mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk> > On Behalf Of alastair gott Sent: Monday, 7 October 2019 19:34 To: List for Therion users <therion(a)speleo.sk <mailto:therion@speleo.sk> > Subject: Re: [Therion] scrap without stations keeps the original sketch in Topodroid Hi Omri, You cannot have a scrap without any survey points in it. each scrap or th2 file needs 2 or greater survey stations in it to function correctly without warping the image. extended elevations are a bit different (and sometimes need careful adjustment of the legs to fold the extended elevation in the correct way). [Caviat, I know you can have a th2 file with no survey stations in it, but we're not creating rocks today wookware.org/surveys/therion/testrocks <http://wookware.org/surveys/therion/testrocks> ]. Regards, Alastair Gott. AlastairGott(a)hotmail.com <mailto:AlastairGott@hotmail.com> , M: 07931779380. _____ From: Therion <therion-bounces(a)speleo.sk <mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk> > on behalf of עמרי גסטר <omrigas(a)gmail.com <mailto:omrigas@gmail.com> > Sent: 06 October 2019 20:31 To: List for Therion users <therion(a)speleo.sk <mailto:therion@speleo.sk> > Subject: [Therion] scrap without stations keeps the original sketch in Topodroid Hi all, I want to raise a question I've been having with my self... when I'm in the cave I use Topodroid to make the sketch. when I export the map in Therion with "debug on" I see the changes that Therion makes which make the final map different from the sketch I made in Topodroid (sometimes it is a big difference). a few days ago I noticed that if I make a new scrap and move all the map elements that I draw except the stations, the map turns out exactly as I draw it on Topodroid. As I understand it, Therion change the map to overcome or compensate errors or Deviations, especially when there are loops involved, but wouldn't it be more accurate to stick to the original sketch that I drew with Topodroid in the cave? what do you think? Omri Gaster _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion(a)speleo.sk <mailto:Therion@speleo.sk> https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion -- בברכה, עמרי גסטר 052-6124995

2 2

***UNCHECKED*** Completing symbol sets
by rsev＠protonmail.com 10 Oct '19

10 Oct '19

Hi, After creating several missing symbols for Topodroid, I want to create missing symbols for Therion. I want to produce at least one complete symbol set. Should I create a new one, copy the symbols already defined that I'm interested and create the new symbols, or maybe should I just include missing symbols in some of the existent sets? How should I proceed? Regards, Rodrigo Severo

3 4

***UNCHECKED*** Merging symbol sets
by rsev＠protonmail.com 10 Oct '19

10 Oct '19

Hi, Is it possible to merge 2 or more symbol sets by defining more than one symbol to be used? In case of conflict (same symbol defined in to different sets) , the last one could be the one that would be used. Is there a way to do this kind of automatic merge? Regards, Rodrigo Severo

1 0

maps on off feature characteristics
by Bruce Mutton 08 Oct '19

08 Oct '19

I've just been playing with the new maps on/off feature a little more. These are just some observations. There seems to be a bug regarding map altitudes in all cases, and scrap altitudes where the scraps are empty. On the other hand it is a good way to highlight the existence of empty scraps! The notes below may not be particularly coherent, but together with the attached log files, you should be able to figure out what is going on. Setting maps to off quadruples compile time and increases pdf size by 15 times (not sure why that should be). Maps off On running a project with 614 scraps reported; This log entry was caused by an empty scrap definition, regardless of whether the empty scrap appears in a map definition S -899999999999999990000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000.00 04-BangAndBeyondPlan-s2@BlackSabbath () ie scrap 04-BangAndBeyondPlan-s2 -projection plan -scale [0 0 787.4 787.4 0 0 10 10 m] endscrap It seems I have 16 empty scraps in that project, a legacy of using topparser, and not always using all of the scrap definitions that it creates. Maps on On running same project with 254 scraps/maps reported; 1. Empty Scrap causes map that contains it not to appear in log, sometimes 04-BangAndBeyondPlan-s2@BlackSabbath is empty and for some reason the following map is not reported in the log file at all. map 04-BangAndBeyondPlan -title "04 beyond the capped rock - black sabbath plan" -projection plan 04-BangAndBeyondPlan-s1 04-BangAndBeyondPlan-s2 endmap 2. All maps are reported with elevation of; M -899999999999999990000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000.00 3. Unexplained empty 'scrap' reported at high altitude. Looking at my data, I cannot explain why this might happen. In the 254 lines, there are only two of these. M -899999999999999990000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000.00 61-AngelicaPlan@MiddleEarth (61 Angelica plan) S 473.40 61-AngelicaPlan-s1@MiddleEarth () S 489.54 61-AngelicaPlan-s2@MiddleEarth () S 1219.69 @ () map 61-AngelicaPlan -title "61 Angelica plan" -projection plan 61-AngelicaPlan-s1 #9C start surveying up pitch 61-AngelicaPlan-s2 # to base of 20C endmap 4. Similar things happen with projected elevation outputs, but there are many more of empty report lines, as in 3. above, and the altitudes reported seem somewhat random and just wrong. I wonder if the altitudes are really some measure of distance into or out of the 'page'? Behaviours seem to be the same whether maps or atlas are exported. Very nice for disabling passage offsets and previews. Bruce

5 12