Here's another batch of Therion feedback from my continuing efforts. I debianized and compiled 0.2.200400224 (is there any reason for not just calling this 0.2.19? - this is the 3rd decimal version number so it might as well go up with each new version you put out) My mulu dataset which worked OK with 0.2.18 gives: therion: warning -- thconfig [7] -- no selected projection data -- plan The jsv test dataset works OK. Downgrading to 0.2.18 also still works, so something is amiss. Copy of thconfig, soundriver.th and soundriver.th2 attached. version 0.2.18 thbook says -clip <bool> but it's -clip <on/off> like most other options - confusing - I tried 0, false before getting it right. Make the docs consistent. search for 'area' finds them in the File Commands box but there is no clue where it is on screen. Highlighting the associated paths would be really good. Finding lines instead of points is tricky - you can click on point, but not line. Especially with big rocks that have a lot of lines, it's hard to know that you have the right line. Highlighting the point at the other end of the line too or something would be good if not the line itself. In the File Commands box there is an underlined entry you can move with the cursor keys and a highlighted entry (the thing currently highlighted on screen) which you can only move with the mouse. WHy do both these things exist? It'd be more useful to be able to move the highlighed entry with the cursor keys, so that you can step through items and _see_ what they refer to. What is the intended use of Rock-edge and rock border? Can you explain what base-scale actually does and how scale interacts - I don't feel I understand properly from reading the thbook. You may have answered this from looking at the article... I still can't get join [id:pt]@survey style to work: I get 'invalid object' join [fsceil1:0]@river [farsidewest3:8]@river. commented out in attached .th file. In the legend 'Topo' is not english - need to be able to change that text. We have 'surveyed', 'explored' and 'drawn' normally. Also 'pit' is 'pitch' in UK english - only American's call them pits. Indeed UK and US caving english are quite different, if Therion takes account of translations - that's why survex has en-gb and en-us translations. How do I deal with this situation: a wall round a corner and a pitch edge goes across the corner; I want to area fill up to the pitch edge? In the attached files this is sbr3(pitch edge), farsidewest2(wall) etc. The problem is that when describing the paths comprising the area you want to go wall, pitch, wall, but the wall has only one ID, so I put area sand sbr1 farsidewest3 sbr2 farsidewest2 sbr3 farsidewest2 endarea in the area coomand, but the sbr3 is ignored and the fill goes right up to the wall. do I have to split the wall into two paths or can the area command be made smart enough to do what is intended here? Is there an easy way of splitting lines without re-drawing? Needed for various situations, the above being just one example. At the moment I am deleting and re-drawing things when I want to split them, which is a pain. encoding utf-8 select evening.soundriver source soundriver.th export model -fmt survex export map -proj plan -layout-base-scale 1 500 -o soundriverpln.pdf # or to use full layout below # export map -proj plan -layout elevator -o soundriverpln.pdf # export atlas -proj plan -o soundriveratlas.pdf layout elevator base-scale 1 500 doc-author "Wookey" endlayout encoding utf-8 survey soundriver map elevator -title "Terikan: Elevator Entrance" farside@river farside2@river endmap #connections # join farside@river farside2@river join farsidewest1@river farsidewest2@river # join [fsceil1:0]@river [farsidewest3:8]@river centerline equate 17@evening 53@river equate 24@evening 1@river #*equate 4@river2 6@evening ; was it stn 6 cairn? closure suggests not equate 1@rifticious 2@evening equate 5@rifticious 12@evening equate 1@pooh 50@river equate 22@rifticious 1@rifticious2 equate 10@penthouse 27@river endcenterline survey evening -title "Top of the Evening" centerline #export 25 2 12 17 24 date 2003.02.02 team "Wookey" notes team "Andy Eavis" clino compass tape #CUCC set #2, Fisco ranger tape? #surveying in, looking in 2 1 18.15 191 -03 3 2 30.00 140 -01 4 3 17.25 179 -01 5 4 21.25 215 +01 6 5 28.1 271 +01 7 6 30.0 305 +10 8 7 30 286 -03 9 8 30.00 290 -12 10 9 16.2 298 -07 9 11 1.4 - down 12 10 30 321 +01 13 12 23.95 214 -17 14 13 17.8 194 -25 15 14 28.0 216 -10 16 15 22.0 195 +11 16 17 15.4 140 +36 18 17 23.0 203 +25 19 18 21.9 230 +27 20 19 30 241 +04 21 20 27.35 251 -08 22 21 13.0 213 +12 23 22 13.5 242 +02 24 23 30 204 -02 1 25 9.0 230 +08 #2 4 6 ~20 2 ; cairn (Andy's Head) #1 2(12) 5 10(17) 0.6 ; Nester's cairn (actual) #3 1 4 10 1.7 ; AH/WH #4 1 6 10+ 1.7 ; Head - rock on floor #5 7 4/20+ - 1.7 ; AH - arrow on floor #6 1(~9) 12 36 1.7 ;Kneeling over cairn (up with disto) #7 ~20 3 ~25 1.7 ; AH, cairn #8 15 10 25 2 ; AH #25 3(15) 7 8(18) 2 ; WH over cairn - last station on previous survey (escalator.pt3)(looking in) #9 9 12 8 2 ; WH above cairn, note #10 1 10 ~10 3 ; AH on rock #11 as 9 0.3 ; cairn, note #12 14 14 - - ; AH, cairn, note #13 ~20 ~20 ~8 - ; #14 10 9 7 1.5 #15 ~20 ~20 ~20 2 ;AH #16 - - - - #17 lots 10 ~30 3.5 ; big cairn, top of passage '17' in pencil #18 10 15 ~30 2 ; AH #19 9 ~23 8 2 ;AH #20 12 8 13 2 ;AH, cairn, note #21 ~16 2 5 4 ; AH on stal bridge #22 12 3 6 1.7 ; AH #23 15? 4 3 2 ;AH #24 4 15 8 2.5 ;AH endcenterline endsurvey evening survey river input soundriver.th2 centerline #export 1 27 40 43 50 53 title "River of Sound" date 2003.02.03 team Wookey notes team "Robbie Shone" clino compass team "James Alker" tape #CUCC insts set #2 1 2 30.00 047 00 2 3 28.25 318 -13 2 4 21.60 020 -13 2 5 19.0 112 +04 5 6 25.6 038 -03 4 7 1.1 335 00 7 8 5.4 - down 8 9 30.0 082 -01 9 10 15.2 093 +02 10 11 28.7 085 -01 11 12 30.0 021 +01 12 13 22.8 050 +06 13 14 15.9 064 -12 14 15 18.7 139 +04 15 16 30.0 135 +08 16 17 30.0 037 +02 17 18 15.6 103 +16 18 19 24.0 170 -22 # clino surveyed on later trip! 19 20 30.0 071 +01 20 21 28.6 038 +09 21 22 17.1 351 +17 22 23 7.2 - down 23 24 28.0 314 -05 24 25 30.0 019 +03 25 26 30.0 037 -01 26 27 30.0 062 00 27 28 30.0 039 +01 28 29 30.0 029 -01 29 30 30.0 042 +04 30 31 30.0 023 -03 31 32 14.3 028 +08 32 33 9.1 320 -18 33 34 30.0 268 -18 34 35 16.5 258 00 35 36 15.0 242 -12 36 37 11.0 267 -02 37 38 11.3 320 +22 38 39 6.4 336 +04 33 41 25.5 033 -02 41 42 28.3 081.5 -15 32 43a 20.2 055 +01 31 44 28.0 092 +10 39 40 23.1 345 +03 42 43 11.3 110 +02 3 45 30.0 303 -06 45 46 30.0 231 -02 46 47 30.0 214 00 47 48 30.0 219 00 48 49 18.0 228 -01 49 50 30.0 255 -03 50 51 30.0 172 +17 # was -17 in notes - can't be right 51 52 27.3 165 +29 52 53 19.2 158 +28 #1 - - - - Stn 24 of last survey. Head on cairn #2 5 ~8 ~6 1.8 ; head #3 8 ~20 6 2 ; stal (S corner) #4 10 ? 3 2 ; head by stal column #5 ? 15 3 1.7 ; head #6 - - ~8 0.8 ; tip of stal at prow #7 - - - - ; Over drop #8 8 1 ~8 1.7 ; top of drop #9 3.5 7(~40) ~20 2 ; head #10 5 6 15+ 2 ; edge of 4m drop, head #11 10 (2)8 20 2 ; head #12 ~10 2 - - ; head #13 10 5(12) 20+ 1.5 ; head #14 6(12) 6(12) ~15 2 ; head #15 - - - - ; head #16 40 9 20 8 ; head #20 8(25+) 0 6(15+) 1.8 ; head #21 - 8 - - #19 - 0 - 1.8 #24 2 5 5(7) 1.8 #23 1 6 ~12 1.5 #25 6 3 30+ 1.7 #26 3 7(30+) 9(+) 1.7 #27 2 10 9 2 #28 1(7) 5 7 4 #29 9 1(6) 15 4 #30 ~15 2 ~30 2(10?) ; head #31 4 10 6 2 ; head #32 - 4 - 2 ; head #33 - - 0.4 ~10 ; tip of boulder '33' #34 5 8 - 1 ; sitting head #35 5 2 3 1(5) ; sitting head #36 6 1 1 1 ; sitting head #37 2 8 1(5) 0.5 ; sitting head '37' written in mud #38 5 1 7 3 ; head #39 5 3 6 1 ; sitting head, note #40 7 1 2 1 ; sitting head, note #43 ? 6 2.5 2 ; sitting head, note #41 10 ? - - ; sitting head #42 2 3 1 1.5 ; 0.4 above cairn #43 6 5.5 2 1 ; point of rock #44 8 8 2 1 ; cairn on boulders (actual) #45 20 0 10 4 ; head #46 5 5 9 1.8 ; head #47 4 4 10 1.8 ; head #48 5 8 10 1.8 ; head #49 1(8) 4(10) 10 1.8 ; head #50 6 5 8 2 ; head #51 8 8 lots 2 ; head #52 15 15 - - ; head #53 ; cairn '17' on top endcenterline endsurvey river survey rifticious centerline #export 1 5 22 date 2003.02.03 team "Wookey" notes team "Robbie Shone" clino compass team "Colin Boothroyd" tape #CUCC set #2, Fisco ranger tape? #surveying in, looking in # RH side of passage 1 2 18.7 021 +01 2 3 24.0 022 +01 3 4 16.8 350 00 #1 3 4 ~12 2.5 ; =stn 2, wook & Andy stn 3, 2003-02-02 #2 3.5 6 +10 2 #3 6 2(+4) ~25 3 #4 ; stn 6 of above survey # SW trending lead from lower corner of Top of the Evening 5 6 30.0 217 -11 6 7 30 190.5 00 7 8 10.5 194.5 +12 8 9 15.9 217 -24 9 10 8.0 182 +07 10 11 7.7 170 +18 11 12 5.5 126 +12 12 13 14.8 224 -06 13 14 18.0 191 -01 14 15 13.7 195 00 15 16 2.000 119 -19 16 17 10.6 210.5 +08 17 18 22.20 205.5 00 18 19 13.70 201 00 19 20 15.00 221 -28 20 21 9.10 268 -46 21 22 6.50 293 -53 19 23 13.2 100 +55 23 24 7.20 184 +31 24 25 7.70 062 +55 25 26 8 060 +26 # grade3 #LRUD to come endcenterline endsurvey rifticious survey pooh centerline #export 1 date 2003.02.03 team "Wookey" tape #and dog team "Robbie Shone" clino compass team "Colin Boothroyd" notes pictures # same day as rifticious survey #CUCC set #2, Fisco ranger tape? data normal station left right up down newline tape compass clino 1 - - - - # stn 50 of 2003-02-03 survey 17.4 241 -05 2 2.5 6 0+8 1 19.08 253.5 -18 # could be 233.5? 3 5 3 4 1.2 7.18 238 -15 4 0 5 3.5 1.5 17.94 000 +20 5 4 3 8 2 8.72 251 -28 6 0.5 2 3 1 21.26 353 +09 7 1 2.5 4 1.6 11.50 033 +07 8 2 4 8 1 10.13 080 +01 9 3.5 2 1 2.5 14.49 021.5 -06 10 3.5 1.5 1.8 1.5 # cairn endcenterline endsurvey pooh survey rifticious2 centerline #export 1 3 #pitch connection between rifticious and menagerie - done on following day date 2003.02.06 team "James Alker" dog team "Robbie shone" notes insts tape 1 2 10.6 292 -44 # 0.6 length in notes - lost '1'? 2 3 15.4 - down # measured rope length endcenterline endsurvey rifticious2 survey penthouse centerline #export 10 date 2003.02.06 team "James Alker" notes tape team "Robbie shone" clino compass #Entrance on shelf before narrowing on way to farside data normal station left right up down newline tape compass clino #CUCC insts 2 2 8 8 6 2 30 046 +9 1 6 4 4 2 0 0 0 # faked data to make therion happy 2 - - - - 30 223 -2 3 8 7 6 2 30 220 0 4 4 20 5 2 28.6 239 -1 5 5 0 3 0.5 9.8 278 -12 6 4 2 5 0.5 20.2 204 +1 7 2 40 5 2 23.0 300 -7 8 20 20 10 2 18.6 0 -25 9 2 40 15 1 # on a stal 5.3 54 -12 10 2 10 15 2 # entrance # entrance 1 # entrance 10 endcenterline endsurvey penthouse endsurvey encoding utf-8 ##XTHERION## xth_me_area_adjust -128 -1247 1800 1328 ##XTHERION## xth_me_area_zoom_to 200 ##XTHERION## xth_me_image_insert {0 1 1.0} 1200 soundriver1pln.pnm 0 {} scrap farside2 -projection plan -scale [-128 -1247 1800 -1247 0.0 0.0 48.9712 0.0 m] line wall -id wall1 51.0 244.0 51.0 244.0 64.55 227.73 78.0 206.0 91.0 185.0 97.0 179.0 97.0 179.0 smooth off 107.0 167.0 107.0 167.0 109.0 159.0 117.0 144.0 125.0 129.0 133.0 111.0 133.0 111.0 smooth off endline point 1013.0 -911.0 station -name 25 #point 983.0 -677.0 station -name 26 #point 1055.0 -455.0 station -name 27 #point 1035.0 -220.0 station -name 28 #point 970.0 9.0 station -name 29 #point 961.0 244.0 station -name 30 point 618.0 413.0 station -name 34 point 546.0 303.0 station -name 35 point 511.0 195.0 station -name 36 point 451.0 125.0 station -name 37 point 360.0 136.0 station -name 38 point 317.0 153.0 station -name 39 point 158.0 244.0 station -name 40 point 165.0 151.0 debris point 131.0 161.0 debris point 139.0 141.0 debris point 181.0 160.0 debris point 169.0 181.0 debris point 159.0 159.0 debris point 243.0 212.0 air-draught -orientation 300.9 point 646.0 505.0 air-draught -orientation 205.7 point 661.0 353.0 air-draught -orientation 210.6 point 474.0 66.0 continuation point 332.0 -61.0 continuation point 243.0 270.0 continuation point 179.0 107.0 continuation point 68.0 279.0 continuation point 105.0 229.0 air-draught -orientation 321.7 line wall -close on 397.0 89.0 393.0 100.0 393.0 100.0 409.0 121.0 413.0 123.0 417.0 125.0 421.0 130.0 423.0 120.0 smooth off 419.0 109.0 397.0 89.0 397.0 89.0 smooth off endline line wall 358.0 -42.0 374.0 -18.0 402.0 34.0 400.0 65.0 smooth off 420.0 75.0 412.0 96.0 439.0 104.0 smooth off 450.0 92.0 453.0 85.0 459.0 72.0 smooth off endline line border -id sbr1 -subtype invisible 652.0 386.0 652.0 386.0 671.0 498.0 626.0 554.0 smooth off endline point 595.0 302.0 debris point 674.0 504.0 debris line wall -id farsidewest3 471.0 83.0 454.0 116.0 454.0 116.0 465.0 106.0 483.0 110.0 501.0 114.0 534.0 136.0 542.0 164.0 550.0 192.0 539.0 237.0 549.0 252.0 559.0 267.0 589.0 284.0 599.0 295.0 625.17 323.78 639.0 366.0 652.0 386.0 660.99 399.83 741.0 478.0 741.0 478.0 smooth off 746.0 452.0 742.63 391.23 849.0 427.0 smooth off endline #Rocks inside wall1, wall2, rb1, rb2 area debris wall1 rb1 wall2 rb2 endarea line rock-border -id rb2 175.0 199.0 107.0 167.0 endline line rock-border -id rb1 133.0 111.0 202.0 151.0 endline line wall -id wall2 202.0 151.0 175.0 199.0 175.0 199.0 185.0 211.0 201.0 206.0 217.0 201.0 285.0 148.0 291.0 142.0 297.0 136.0 327.0 107.0 333.0 83.0 339.0 59.0 343.0 28.0 317.0 -27.0 smooth off endline line pit -id sbr2 536.0 312.0 558.0 285.0 563.0 266.0 endline area sand sbr1 farsidewest3 sbr2 farsidewest2 sbr3 farsidewest2 endarea line wall -id farsidewest2 359.0 142.0 359.0 142.0 375.0 176.0 383.0 183.0 391.0 190.0 390.0 180.0 398.0 188.0 406.0 196.0 445.84 222.97 447.0 216.0 448.0 210.0 473.0 203.0 473.0 189.0 473.0 175.0 461.0 154.0 461.0 154.0 smooth off 461.0 154.0 484.0 161.0 495.0 176.0 506.0 191.0 509.0 221.0 509.0 234.0 509.0 247.0 505.0 280.0 510.0 303.0 515.0 326.0 543.0 306.0 536.0 312.0 529.0 318.0 562.0 346.0 568.0 358.0 574.0 370.0 584.0 396.0 577.0 399.0 570.0 402.0 537.0 371.0 531.0 378.0 525.0 385.0 533.0 389.0 533.0 389.0 smooth off 533.0 389.0 573.0 460.0 583.0 461.0 593.0 462.0 601.0 449.0 601.0 449.0 smooth off 601.0 449.0 614.0 461.0 616.0 480.0 618.0 499.0 626.0 541.0 626.0 554.0 626.0 567.0 629.0 590.0 629.0 590.0 smooth off endline line wall 254.0 258.0 277.11 221.68 345.0 160.0 359.0 142.0 smooth off endline line wall 112.0 282.0 145.0 243.0 145.0 243.0 149.0 263.0 171.0 266.0 202.11 270.24 245.0 236.0 245.0 236.0 smooth off 245.0 236.0 239.0 247.0 237.0 254.0 smooth off endline line pit -id sbr3 560.0 388.0 558.0 397.0 549.0 405.0 541.0 405.0 smooth off endline line contour 480.0 119.0 480.0 119.0 505.0 125.0 520.0 143.0 535.0 161.0 535.0 165.0 537.0 181.0 539.0 197.0 538.0 220.0 539.0 233.0 540.0 246.0 546.7 266.32 552.0 271.0 555.23 273.85 560.0 280.5 558.0 285.0 smooth off endline line contour 475.0 127.0 475.0 127.0 512.0 151.0 518.0 159.0 524.0 167.0 529.0 172.0 531.0 182.0 533.0 192.0 533.0 226.0 535.0 239.0 537.0 252.0 548.0 278.0 551.0 281.0 555.47 285.47 552.0 292.0 552.0 292.0 smooth off endline line arrow 735.0 515.0 712.0 517.0 endline line arrow 728.0 477.0 698.0 481.0 endline line contour -clip off 692.0 432.0 692.0 432.0 696.92 439.2 710.0 477.0 723.08 514.8 728.0 536.0 728.0 536.0 smooth off endline line pit -clip off 657.0 411.0 657.0 411.0 647.11 386.22 665.0 422.0 682.89 457.78 669.38 427.77 684.0 465.0 698.62 502.23 707.0 529.0 707.0 529.0 smooth off endline line pit 352.0 91.0 352.0 91.0 368.0 111.0 372.0 120.0 smooth off endline endscrap scrap farside -projection plan -scale [-128 -1247 1800 -1247 0.0 0.0 48.9712 0.0 m] point 875.0 460.0 station -name 31 point 968.0 805.0 air-draught -orientation 230.6 point 844.0 567.0 station -name 32 point 775.0 574.0 station -name 33 point 873.0 726.0 station -name 43a point 948.0 977.0 station -name 43 point 867.0 942.0 station -name 42 point 736.0 770.0 station -name 41 point 1035.0 606.0 station -name 44 line wall 919.0 1102.0 987.0 995.0 endline line arrow 987.0 616.0 949.0 588.0 endline line arrow 1006.0 548.0 969.0 519.0 endline point 973.0 871.0 continuation point 898.0 1109.0 continuation line contour 1032.0 521.0 1032.0 521.0 1012.0 556.0 1007.0 581.0 1002.0 606.0 1001.0 615.0 999.0 624.0 997.0 633.0 996.0 643.0 998.0 654.0 smooth off endline line contour 995.0 484.0 995.0 484.0 964.0 565.0 964.0 593.0 964.0 621.0 967.0 630.0 967.0 630.0 smooth off endline line ceiling-step -id fsceil1 -clip off 741.0 478.0 741.0 478.0 750.0 533.0 769.0 579.0 788.0 625.0 802.0 630.0 817.0 635.0 smooth off endline line contour -reverse on -clip off 868.0 587.0 868.0 587.0 848.0 592.0 823.0 568.0 798.0 544.0 795.0 516.0 795.0 516.0 smooth off 795.0 516.0 773.0 521.0 743.0 490.0 smooth off endline line contour -reverse on -clip off 869.0 579.0 869.0 579.0 844.0 563.0 833.0 550.0 822.0 537.0 807.0 504.0 807.0 504.0 smooth off 807.0 504.0 788.5 504.5 745.5 474.5 smooth off endline line contour -id rbr5c 969.0 448.0 969.0 448.0 945.0 494.0 943.0 514.0 941.0 534.0 940.0 555.0 938.0 573.0 936.89 582.99 940.0 600.0 943.0 612.0 smooth off endline line wall -id rbr5b 1075.0 556.0 1075.0 556.0 1037.0 531.0 1001.0 490.0 965.0 449.0 960.0 437.0 955.0 426.0 smooth off endline line label -text choked 1149.0 645.0 1104.0 713.0 endline line wall -id rbr5a 1125.0 589.0 subtype presumed 1075.0 556.0 endline line wall -id rbr5e 1005.0 656.0 subtype presumed 1072.0 704.0 endline point 817.0 583.0 debris point 863.0 609.0 debris point 836.0 616.0 debris point 814.0 610.0 debris area debris rbr5a rbr5b rbr5c rbr5d rbr5e rbr5f endarea line border -id rbr5f 1028.0 673.0 1028.0 673.0 1050.0 601.0 1092.0 565.0 smooth off endline line wall -id rbr5d 936.0 740.0 936.0 740.0 914.0 717.0 893.0 667.0 872.0 617.0 864.0 584.0 869.0 579.0 883.3 564.7 948.0 613.0 1005.0 656.0 smooth off endline line wall 975.0 782.0 subtype presumed 936.0 740.0 endline line border -id blockage1 -close on -subtype invisible 987.0 995.0 957.0 966.0 934.0 928.0 940.0 917.0 968.0 938.0 983.0 959.0 1002.0 972.0 987.0 995.0 endline area debris -id blk1area -clip off blockage1 endarea point 728.0 688.0 debris point 731.0 702.0 debris point 711.0 698.0 debris point 703.0 709.0 debris point 683.0 701.0 debris point 682.0 679.0 debris point 682.0 629.0 debris point 673.0 659.0 debris point 722.0 801.0 debris point 676.0 735.0 debris line pit 727.0 737.0 727.0 737.0 702.0 726.0 665.0 720.0 smooth off endline line pit 741.0 845.0 741.0 845.0 726.0 823.0 750.0 803.0 smooth off endline line rock-edge 797.0 825.0 801.0 836.0 811.0 839.0 endline line rock-edge 831.0 842.0 812.0 832.0 811.0 844.0 829.0 849.0 endline line rock-edge -close on 842.0 843.0 836.0 854.0 829.0 849.0 831.0 842.0 842.0 843.0 endline line rock-edge -close on 853.0 868.0 846.0 871.0 837.0 865.0 844.0 850.0 860.0 859.0 853.0 868.0 endline line rock-edge 871.0 871.0 870.0 858.0 860.0 859.0 853.0 868.0 866.0 881.0 endline line rock-edge -reverse on 871.0 905.0 880.0 892.0 876.0 886.0 866.0 881.0 871.0 871.0 884.0 877.0 880.0 892.0 endline line wall -reverse on -subtype blocks 886.0 927.0 871.0 905.0 endline line wall -reverse on -subtype blocks 924.0 941.0 924.0 941.0 922.0 949.0 913.0 950.0 904.0 951.0 895.0 942.0 895.0 942.0 smooth off 886.0 940.0 886.0 927.0 endline line wall 940.0 917.0 subtype presumed 924.0 941.0 endline line wall 987.0 995.0 subtype presumed 1011.0 958.0 endline line wall -id farsidewest1 629.0 590.0 632.0 624.0 636.0 655.0 642.0 723.0 642.0 723.0 651.0 772.0 663.0 791.0 671.44 804.37 705.0 826.0 705.0 826.0 smooth off 720.0 833.0 739.0 857.0 748.0 862.0 753.0 870.0 762.0 871.0 769.0 874.0 773.0 881.0 782.0 881.0 782.0 881.0 790.0 885.0 793.0 890.0 796.0 895.0 800.62 903.69 806.0 906.0 813.0 909.0 820.0 912.0 820.0 912.0 smooth off 828.0 915.0 875.0 976.0 875.0 976.0 smooth off 874.0 987.0 874.0 987.0 900.0 1017.0 897.0 1029.0 894.0 1041.0 880.0 1071.0 880.0 1071.0 smooth off endline line rock-edge -close on 830.0 818.0 812.0 832.0 781.0 818.0 791.0 792.0 818.0 805.0 830.0 818.0 endline line rock-edge 752.0 781.0 732.0 791.0 722.0 754.0 742.0 750.0 endline line rock-edge -close on 787.0 768.0 758.0 788.0 752.0 781.0 752.0 781.0 752.0 770.0 750.0 763.0 748.0 756.0 742.0 750.0 742.0 750.0 smooth off 751.0 724.0 751.0 724.0 764.0 717.0 764.0 723.0 764.0 729.0 767.0 731.0 774.0 731.0 781.0 731.0 774.0 744.0 774.0 744.0 smooth off 787.0 768.0 endline line rock-edge -close on 689.0 669.0 689.0 669.0 688.0 702.0 694.0 703.0 700.0 704.0 708.0 678.0 708.0 678.0 smooth off 689.0 669.0 endline line rock-edge -clip off 687.0 613.0 660.0 538.0 671.0 530.0 endline line rock-edge -clip off 671.0 530.0 694.0 536.0 endline line rock-edge -clip off 660.0 538.0 669.0 544.0 endline line rock-edge -close on -clip off 687.0 613.0 687.0 613.0 701.0 621.0 708.0 614.0 715.0 607.0 716.0 596.0 713.0 589.0 710.0 582.0 694.0 536.0 694.0 536.0 smooth off 669.0 544.0 687.0 613.0 endline line rock-edge -close on 851.0 555.0 867.0 546.0 869.0 561.0 857.0 564.0 851.0 555.0 endline point 901.0 465.0 debris line arrow endline line wall -close on 924.0 475.0 931.0 481.0 936.0 473.0 930.0 468.0 924.0 463.0 917.0 469.0 924.0 475.0 endline line wall -close on 909.0 501.0 909.0 501.0 902.0 504.0 898.0 501.0 894.0 498.0 889.0 496.0 894.0 492.0 899.0 488.0 909.0 501.0 909.0 501.0 smooth off endline area debris rbr3 rbr5d endarea line border -id rbr3 -subtype invisible 936.0 740.0 914.0 816.0 860.0 859.0 830.0 818.0 787.0 761.0 788.0 726.0 773.0 705.0 754.0 704.0 695.0 502.0 718.0 492.0 788.0 571.0 769.0 594.0 777.0 623.0 809.0 643.0 883.5 637.5 endline #rb3 and nearby wall surrounds rocky area area debris rbr3 rbr5d endarea line pit 897.0 1029.0 905.0 1020.0 905.0 1020.0 910.0 990.0 921.0 987.0 932.0 984.0 948.0 989.0 949.0 994.0 950.0 999.0 943.0 1010.0 941.0 1023.0 939.0 1036.0 947.0 1057.0 937.0 1073.0 smooth off endline line pit 880.0 1071.0 880.0 1071.0 878.0 1057.0 908.0 1066.0 938.0 1075.0 933.0 1086.0 933.0 1086.0 smooth off endline endscrap
I debianized and compiled 0.2.200400224 (is there any reason for not just calling this 0.2.19? - this is the 3rd decimal version number so it might as well go up with each new version you put out)
Sometimes there is a new version each day -- this is only something like CVS depository with up-to-date sources for developers. Numbered versions should have CHANGES and other documentation updated.
thbook says -clip <bool> but it's -clip <on/off> like most other options - confusing - I tried 0, false before getting it right. Make the docs consistent.
Will be fixed
What is the intended use of Rock-edge and rock border?
rock-border is the outer border, rock-edge marks edges inside a large block (is usually omited in smaller blocks)
Can you explain what base-scale actually does and how scale interacts - I don't feel I understand properly from reading the thbook. You may have answered this from looking at the article...
scale is the output scale. If you specify also base-scale, it has the effect as if you did the following steps: * print a map in base-scale * go to a copy shop and say 'I want a copy of this in the scale' both maps are finally in scale but with different line widths and symbol sizes.
I still can't get join [id:pt]@survey style to work: I get 'invalid object' join [fsceil1:0]@river [farsidewest3:8]@river. commented out in attached .th file.
omit the brackets. Unfortunately therionbook is misleading in this point.
In the legend 'Topo' is not english - need to be able to change that text. We have 'surveyed', 'explored' and 'drawn' normally.
Would it be correct to say Surveyed: A.B., C.D. Drawn: X.Y. ?
Also 'pit' is 'pitch' in UK english - only American's call them pits. Indeed UK and US caving english are quite different, if Therion takes account of translations - that's why survex has en-gb and en-us translations.
well, it is possible to use en-us and en-uk subtypes, but only for texts in the output files.
Is there an easy way of splitting lines without re-drawing? Needed for various situations, the above being just one example. At the moment I am deleting and re-drawing things when I want to split them, which is a pain.
select a point where the line should be splitted; than Line control->Edit line->Split line Martin
My mulu dataset which worked OK with 0.2.18 gives: therion: warning -- thconfig [7] -- no selected projection data -- plan
We've changed the behaviour of "select" command. If there is select <some-survey> only maps from <some-survey> survey are exported. This is very useful if you have huge datasets. So look for the select command select evening.soundriver in your thconfig file. You've selected survey for export, where no maps are given. You have to change it to "select soundriver", or use another select: select elevator@soundriver or remove all selects at all.
search for 'area' finds them in the File Commands box but there is no clue where it is on screen. Highlighting the associated paths would be really good.
You've probably not noticed "Show" button in the area control :)))
Finding lines instead of points is tricky - you can click on point, but not line. Especially with big rocks that have a lot of lines, it's hard to know that you have the right line. Highlighting the point at the other end of the line too or something would be good if not the line itself.
OK.
In the File Commands box there is an underlined entry you can move with the cursor keys and a highlighted entry (the thing currently highlighted on screen) which you can only move with the mouse.
WHy do both these things exist? It'd be more useful to be able to move the highlighed entry with the cursor keys, so that you can step through items and _see_ what they refer to.
This behaviour I "can not" change (I was also wondering). This is because of BWidgets. You have to move "underlined cursor" to desired position and press "Space". I'll look at it.
What is the intended use of Rock-edge and rock border?
rock-border is the outer border, rock-edge marks edges inside a large block (is usually omited in smaller blocks)
... and in the new version, if the rock border will be closed-line - it will be filled with background color and overlap all items below. Like this, you'll be able to draw rocks on some area (sand, debris, water) also.
Also 'pit' is 'pitch' in UK english - only American's call them pits. Indeed UK and US caving english are quite different, if Therion takes account of translations - that's why survex has en-gb and en-us translations.
OK, I've added it into output en_UK translation (to the legend). It would be also very easy to add it into input parsing table, but I'm not sure, whether it makes sense (a lot of equivalents can lead to chaos). You have to decide (at least, we support centreline/centerline so I think pitch/pit could be also supported, because pitch is quite important. But I'm not sure about popcorn (cauliflowercalcite in UIS signatures :)) or other items like that... Hope this helps, S.
+++ Martin Budaj [04-02-27 15:37 +0100]:
What is the intended use of Rock-edge and rock border?
rock-border is the outer border, rock-edge marks edges inside a large block (is usually omited in smaller blocks)
The outer border of an individual large rock? (as opposed to the border of an area of rocks, or a rocky wall (that is wall -subtype blocks, right?)
Can you explain what base-scale actually does and how scale interacts - I don't feel I understand properly from reading the thbook. You may have answered this from looking at the article...
scale is the output scale. If you specify also base-scale, it has the effect as if you did the following steps:
* print a map in base-scale * go to a copy shop and say 'I want a copy of this in the scale'
OK - I suggest you put it like that in the thbook - it is easy to understand when put like that.
I still can't get join [id:pt]@survey style to work: I get 'invalid object' join [fsceil1:0]@river [farsidewest3:8]@river. commented out in attached .th file.
omit the brackets. Unfortunately therionbook is misleading in this point.
I tried it without the brackets too: it says 'line mark not a keyword -- fsceil1:0@river'
In the legend 'Topo' is not english - need to be able to change that text. We have 'surveyed', 'explored' and 'drawn' normally.
Would it be correct to say Surveyed: A.B., C.D. Drawn: X.Y. ?
Yes, or 'Surveyed by:...' 'Drawn by:...' - either is OK Actually I would use Surveyed: <date>, Surveyed by: <people> and Drawn: <date>, Drawn by: <people> Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
I tried it without the brackets too: it says 'line mark not a keyword -- fsceil1:0@river'
Congratulations! This is a real BUG :))) Temporary - you can fixed it using: join fsceil1:0 farsidewest3:7 behind "survey river" command. I believe, I'll fix this bug over weekend. I have another question. I saw, that you're using "arrows" to show the gradient of the floor. Until now we have only "point gradient", that should be used like this. Probably, you would welcome also "line gradient". Because in fact "line arrow" serves (from our point of view) for showing the relation between labels (or sections) to the places in the passage. And there will be a symbol conflict, if you will use arrows and "point gradient" for the same thing. Regards, S.
In the legend 'Topo' is not english - need to be able to change that text. We have 'surveyed', 'explored' and 'drawn' normally.
Would it be correct to say Surveyed: A.B., C.D. Drawn: X.Y. ?
Yes, or 'Surveyed by:...' 'Drawn by:...' - either is OK
Actually I would use Surveyed: <date>, Surveyed by: <people> and Drawn: <date>, Drawn by: <people>
Wookey
+++ Stacho Mudrak [04-02-27 16:39 +0100]:
My mulu dataset which worked OK with 0.2.18 gives: therion: warning -- thconfig [7] -- no selected projection data -- plan
We've changed the behaviour of "select" command. If there is
OK, thanx
You've probably not noticed "Show" button in the area control :)))
Ah, yes - that's better, although it would still be good if an 'area' search 'pushed' this button automatically then it would seem like searching for other items (they highlight when found).
This behaviour I "can not" change (I was also wondering). This is because of BWidgets. You have to move "underlined cursor" to desired position and press "Space". I'll look at it.
ah - another useful key. Here's a thing for the wishlist - add a list of keys to the help menu - that would help users a lot as they are easy to forget.
What is the intended use of Rock-edge and rock border?
rock-border is the outer border, rock-edge marks edges inside a large block (is usually omited in smaller blocks)
... and in the new version, if the rock border will be closed-line - it will be filled with background color and overlap all items below. Like this, you'll be able to draw rocks on some area (sand, debris, water) also.
ahh - excellent.
Also 'pit' is 'pitch' in UK english - only American's call them pits. Indeed UK and US caving english are quite different, if Therion takes account of translations - that's why survex has en-gb and en-us translations.
OK, I've added it into output en_UK translation (to the legend). It would be also very easy to add it into input parsing table, but I'm not sure, whether it makes sense (a lot of equivalents can lead to chaos). You have to decide (at least, we support centreline/centerline so I think pitch/pit could be also supported, because pitch is quite important. But I'm not sure about popcorn (cauliflowercalcite in UIS signatures :)) or other items like that...
You are right that this is tricky. Normally it would be best to say 'the format is the format' and it's only in one language. However in this application a lot of the spelling and syntax is exposed to the user (entering options for example), so 'foreign' spellings are a problem (I remember once spending hours wondering why <CENTRE> didn't work in my HTML - it has to be <CENTER>, of course). Therion users are likley to have similar problems but I agree that trying to enter every translation into the syntax is a mistake. Some of the UIS names are a bit odd to any english speaker - they are 'swiss english' :-) Allowing alternatives for 'really common' items probably makes sense, but no more, and hiding things behind translatable widgets is also a good idea in this context. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
+++ Stacho Mudrak [04-02-27 17:23 +0100]:
I have another question.
I saw, that you're using "arrows" to show the gradient of the floor.
yes. I got this from German surveyors. I thought that contours+gradient arrows was 'UIS' symbols, but maybe I am wrong? - this is why I didn't want contour ticks.
Until now we have only "point gradient", that should be used like this. Probably, you would welcome also "line gradient".
Yes. At some point I will try and do a BCRA symbol set, but I try to use approximately UIS symbols myself.
Because in fact "line arrow" serves (from our point of view) for showing the relation between labels (or sections) to the places in the passage. And there will be a symbol conflict, if you will use arrows and "point gradient" for the same thing.
understood. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
Stacho Mudrak wrote:
I have another question.
I saw, that you're using "arrows" to show the gradient of the floor. Until now we have only "point gradient", that should be used like this. Probably, you would welcome also "line gradient". Because in fact "line arrow" serves (from our point of view) for showing the relation between labels (or sections) to the places in the passage. And there will be a symbol conflict, if you will use arrows and "point gradient" for the same thing.
I would certainly appreciate this. I currently mark all the places I substitute similar symbols for the ones I really want with a comment so that I can easily go back and change them as functionality increases, or I find the time to look at defining the symbols I want. Yours, John
I still can't get join [id:pt]@survey style to work: I get 'invalid object' join [fsceil1:0]@river [farsidewest3:8]@river. commented out in attached .th file.
omit the brackets. Unfortunately therionbook is misleading in this point.
I tried it without the brackets too: it says 'line mark not a keyword -- fsceil1:0@river'
Finally it wasn't a bug, but we've forgotten, how we've done it :))) (We're almost not using this feature). So join fsceil1@river:0 farsidewest3@river:7 should work with current version of therion. We will update thbook. S.
+++ Stacho Mudrak [04-03-01 10:26 +0100]:
> >I still can't get join [id:pt]@survey style to work: I get 'invalid
object'
> > join [fsceil1:0]@river [farsidewest3:8]@river. commented out in
attached
> >.th file.
omit the brackets. Unfortunately therionbook is misleading in this point.
I tried it without the brackets too: it says 'line mark not a keyword -- fsceil1:0@river'
Finally it wasn't a bug, but we've forgotten, how we've done it :))) (We're almost not using this feature). So
join fsceil1@river:0 farsidewest3@river:7
should work with current version of therion. We will update thbook.
OK, checked it - does. Makes my pic look noticeably better. That's actually a rather odd syntax don't you think? The syntax in thbook seems rather more sensible to me (with the smaller parts to the left). Thinking about it 0:fsceil1@river would actually be the most logical, but somehow that doesn't seem as clear as fsceil1:0@river Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
join fsceil1@river:0 farsidewest3@river:7
That's actually a rather odd syntax don't you think? The syntax in thbook seems rather more sensible to me (with the smaller parts to the left). Thinking about it 0:fsceil1@river would actually be the most logical, but somehow that doesn't seem as clear as fsceil1:0@river
If we take 'fsceil1@river' as a full-ID, then the current syntax means <full-id>:<mark>, which is odd, but consistent -- isn't it? Martin
OK, checked it - does. Makes my pic look noticeably better.
That's actually a rather odd syntax don't you think?
Yes, it's not natural. At the first approach, we had syntax "fsceil1:0@river", (when I started to fix the bug, I realized, that I have just to uncomment some lines :))) but than we've changed it. The problem is, I can't remeber why :(((, but I believe we had a serious reason. But the second think is - that joining lines at given points is really very rare situation. Firstly, when we had no "join scrap1 scrap2 -count 2", it was quite common. But now, we're almost not using it... (when you first think a little bit, where the scraps will join). The last think, in naming we were inspired by internet (@ and ":" as separators). And there you also specify port using ":" behind the machine. In fact, there is a lot of stuff like this in therion, we've left on "more sophisticated user interface", where you will just drag line from one line point to another. I've put new developement version (20040229) on the server. We would like to release version 0.2.29 tomorrow, when Martin will include his changes and modify thbook. But if you're interested in, there should work line highlighting, selected line is red, area is automatically showed when selected and also moving commands to specific position in the file is possible. S.
+++ Martin Budaj [04-03-01 13:30 +0100]:
join fsceil1@river:0 farsidewest3@river:7
That's actually a rather odd syntax don't you think? The syntax in thbook seems rather more sensible to me (with the smaller parts to the left). Thinking about it 0:fsceil1@river would actually be the most logical, but somehow that doesn't seem as clear as fsceil1:0@river
If we take 'fsceil1@river' as a full-ID, then the current syntax means <full-id>:<mark>, which is odd, but consistent -- isn't it?
yes. fair enough. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
John Pybus writes:
I would certainly appreciate this. I currently mark all the places I substitute similar symbols for the ones I really want with a comment so that I can easily go back and change them as functionality increases, or I find the time to look at defining the symbols I want.
BTW, why don't you ask for some new features which you really want in this conference? We're used to drawing caves in one way so we can't imagine what ever would others need... Regards, Martin
participants (4)
-
John Pybus -
Martin Budaj -
Stacho Mudrak -
Wookey