[therion-users] New version of therion
Hello everybody, this morning I've uploaded new version of therion to our web-site. Thanks to Wookey, we've also man pages for therion and xtherion (we've slightly modified them) and also documentation has been changed according to his proposals (and should be up to date now). I've studied also the makeconvert.pl script changes, that Wookey did in his Debian distribution, and it seems to me, that we've not understood correctly. The projection stays in export command, but is inserted via option. E.g. if you want to export map of extended profile, you enter into thconfig file: export map -proj extended (previosly it has been "export map extended"). The other thing for Debian distribution - at least at man pages is written, that therion tex and mpost macros are installed into /usr/share/texmf/... directory. But from version 0.2.13, therion don't need these macros! They're compiled in therion executable - so no additional tex or metapost configuration is needed! If you will remove them - nothing will happen and therion continue to work. I hope, you understood what I have written :) The last point, if somebody is interested about future therion developement, we would like to add to therion following features: 1. Automatically generated graphical scale, north arrow, title, authors and legend should be added to map and atlas by default. User will have possibility to modify them. 2. The modification of symbol set by user. It will be done via layout. 3. The therion tutorial - we're now working on some documents, that will make first steps in therion much more easy, like it is now. Because a lot of people are asking us for them - at least here in Czechoslovakia. 4. 3D passage wall modeling. Best regards, S.
+++ Stacho Mudrak [03-07-17 09:05 +0200]:
Hello everybody,
this morning I've uploaded new version of therion to our web-site. Thanks to Wookey, we've also man pages for therion and xtherion (we've slightly modified them) and also documentation has been changed according to his proposals (and should be up to date now).
I've studied also the makeconvert.pl script changes, that Wookey did in his Debian distribution, and it seems to me, that we've not understood correctly. The projection stays in export command, but is inserted via option.
E.g. if you want to export map of extended profile, you enter into thconfig file:
export map -proj extended
OK- yes - I misunderstood. (mind you, it seemed to work in that I thought I got the expected map out of my data with this option missing - but then I didn't have any plan data to confuse matters). Presumably you have fixed the script?
The other thing for Debian distribution - at least at man pages is written, that therion tex and mpost macros are installed into /usr/share/texmf/... directory. But from version 0.2.13, therion don't need these macros! They're compiled in therion executable - so no additional tex or metapost configuration is needed! If you will remove them - nothing will happen and therion continue to work.
I hope, you understood what I have written :)
Yep. I wasn't sure about that last point and as things were clearly working I left it how it was in the previous version. OK - so I should just treat those files as part of the source and not install them separately. I thought that's what you said but I didn't understand how metapost and Tex macros could be compiled into a C++ executable - I assumed TeX/Metapost still needed to be able to see the files somewhere.
The last point, if somebody is interested about future therion developement, we would like to add to therion following features:
1. Automatically generated graphical scale, north arrow, title, authors and legend should be added to map and atlas by default. User will have possibility to modify them.
That would be sensible - it wil need quite a lot of flexibility. Standard slots for Grade/survey type/entrance location(s) would probably be helpful. Other info can be free text.
2. The modification of symbol set by user. It will be done via layout.
Definately needed.
3. The therion tutorial - we're now working on some documents, that will make first steps in therion much more easy, like it is now. Because a lot of people are asking us for them - at least here in Czechoslovakia.
It would be useful to get a set of translators who understand caving, surveying and computers (as well as at least 2 languages) to generate documents in several world languages.Survex already has a set for error messages. Debian has a project DDTP (Debian Description translation project) to translate all software description (I see the .sk team is catching up with .br and .de fast at the moment and is the 4th best-supported language!). I don't know if it is possible to use this project for general documentation translation - probably not yet.
4. 3D passage wall modeling.
Survex (survex-1_1 branch in CVS) now has general passages round centrelines using opengl (also C++ code). Currently they are square because we haven't got code to read in better passage-dimension info yet. It may well be possible to 1) use that code in therion or 2) have therion provide passage dimension info to Aven and use that viewer 5. My suggestion: I need to do some more drawing to be sure but at the moment I think we need to improve xtherion so that drawing is not so slow - It will never be as fast as pen-drawing but currently I find it takes an amazingly long time and this makes me wonder if Therion is really practical for my surveys - things like code to auto-track walls would save a lot of time (TunnelX has this but it's java so we can't just use it directly unfortunately). Easier ways of drawing large, specific boulders. Maybe all I need is a list of the keyboard shortcuts for starting and stopping lines, changing line types, moving around the data-file. Is there one? I admit I have spent too much time packaging and not enough actually using recently! I have some surveys to draw soon so I'll use it some more...
Presumably you have fixed the script?
I'm sorry - no. Probably nobody uses these versions - so I thought it useless (at least no time for that).
I thought that's what you said but I didn't understand how metapost and Tex macros could be compiled into a C++ executable - I assumed TeX/Metapost still needed to be able to see the files somewhere.
They're stored in C++ as string constants and written directly to the beginning of MP file and TeX file. This is quite nasty - but seems to be very idiot-proof.
1. Automatically generated graphical scale, north arrow, title, authors and legend should be added to map and atlas by default. User will have possibility to modify them.
That would be sensible - it wil need quite a lot of flexibility. Standard slots for Grade/survey type/entrance location(s) would probably be helpful. Other info can be free text.
Of course - we will discuss it at meetend in two weeks, than I'll let you know and we can discuss it in conference.
4. 3D passage wall modeling.
Survex (survex-1_1 branch in CVS) now has general passages round centrelines using opengl (also C++ code). Currently they are square because we haven't got code to read in better passage-dimension info yet. It may well be possible to 1) use that code in therion or 2) have therion provide passage dimension info to Aven and use that viewer
Thanks - at least the second possibility will be supported - because OpenGL at TclTk is not so easy to set-up. Do you have also other shapes in aven? Can I insert sections on other points, than centerline?
5. My suggestion: I need to do some more drawing to be sure but at the moment I think we need to improve xtherion so that drawing is not so slow - It will never be as fast as pen-drawing but currently I find it takes an amazingly long time and this makes me wonder if Therion is really practical for my surveys - things like code to auto-track walls would save a lot of time (TunnelX has this but it's java so we can't just use it directly unfortunately). Easier ways of drawing large, specific boulders. Maybe all I need is a list of the keyboard shortcuts for starting and stopping lines, changing line types, moving around the data-file. Is there one?
Ad shortcuts: * create line : Ctrl+l (see menu) * finish line : click (insert point) on the last point by right button * close line: click (insert point) on the first line point * changing line type - no at the moment - do you have any idea? Some popup menu or something simmilar? * moving around the data file - what do you mean? Scrolling can be done via left-click and mouse move. We plan to put tree instead of list with objects (file commands). Object search should work also. OK, I will put to TODO on the first place making the list of all controls to thbook. Ad wall tracking: I have this in a long-term TODO - but if there is a code doing this in TunnelX, I can try to steal it (transcription to Tcl from Java should be no problem). By the way - you can use TunnelX (if it's faster) and convert data to therion (as far as I know TunnelX, it should not be big problem - just removing the <>""= XML stuff should be more or less enought. Or you can definitelly use TunnelX :-) Ad boulders: I draw rock-edge lines not very cosher way (shapes like Y or so)- some line segments are entered twise - but then I enter the entire rock-edge by one line.
I admit I have spent too much time packaging and not enough actually using recently! I have some surveys to draw soon so I'll use it some more...
I'm very curious about your impressions... S.
+++ Stacho Mudrak [03-07-17 11:35 +0200]: I just tried to use uscan to get the new code but the direct link to therion-0.2.14.tar.gz has gone/moved. (uscan cannot use the download.cgi link) Is there a direct link on the new site? Can I have one? (why do you go via this downloadcgi thing anyway - what's wrong with a good old-fashioned link?)
Presumably you have fixed the script?
I'm sorry - no. Probably nobody uses these versions - so I thought it useless (at least no time for that).
OK. I'll probably do it as I still have unconverted datasets (and wrongly converted datasets from last time :-( )
I thought that's what you said but I didn't understand how metapost and Tex macros could be compiled into a C++ executable - I assumed TeX/Metapost still needed to be able to see the files somewhere.
They're stored in C++ as string constants and written directly to the beginning of MP file and TeX file. This is quite nasty - but seems to be very idiot-proof.
yuck. But I suppose if it works... I prefer doing it the Debian way but I can see the advantages for other platforms where config is less sure so lets go with this method.
to 1) use that code in therion or 2) have therion provide passage dimension info to Aven and use that viewer
Thanks - at least the second possibility will be supported - because OpenGL at TclTk is not so easy to set-up. Do you have also other shapes in aven? Can I insert sections on other points, than centerline?
I don't know. Mark Shinwell has done most of the work and he is caving in Austria now for 5 weeks (and maybe hacking aven some more). Olly may know, and he's still here.
Ad shortcuts:
* create line : Ctrl+l (see menu) * finish line : click (insert point) on the last point by right button * close line: click (insert point) on the first line point * changing line type - no at the moment - do you have any idea? Some popup menu or something simmilar?
keystrokes. I found I spend far too much clicking on a line or point, then going to RH side menu and selecting somethign else, then clicking on another line or point right next door, then going to RH side menu and so on - common functions must be on keystrokes for efficient use.
* moving around the data file - what do you mean? Scrolling can be done via left-click and mouse move. We plan to put tree instead of list with objects (file commands). Object search should work also.
I have forgotten the details now but I know I got quite frustrated - more next time I do some drawing.
OK, I will put to TODO on the first place making the list of all controls to thbook.
that would be very helpful.
Ad wall tracking: I have this in a long-term TODO - but if there is a code doing this in TunnelX, I can try to steal it (transcription to Tcl from Java should be no problem). By the way - you can use TunnelX (if it's faster) and convert data to therion (as far as I know TunnelX, it should not be big problem - just removing the <>""= XML stuff should be more or less enought. Or you can definitelly use TunnelX :-)
Interesting - you think the formats are very similar? that would be useful - it's interface is more developed than xtherion. I don't use because I haven't found a free java implementation that works with it, and last time I tried to download Sun JRE I ran out of disk space, and basically I have had so much trouble with java over the years that I just don't use it :-)
Ad boulders: I draw rock-edge lines not very cosher way (shapes like Y or so)- some line segments are entered twise - but then I enter the entire rock-edge by one line.
That's the sort of thing I mean - it has to be drawn as more than one line but it is really one 'object' and going back to edit the file afterwards is slow and boring and error-prone. (I have hundreds of rocks to draw!)
I'm very curious about your impressions...
I'll take some notes. --
+++ Stacho Mudrak [03-07-17 09:05 +0200]:
Hello everybody,
this morning I've uploaded new version of therion to our web-site.
I've got all efficient and done a therion 0.2.14-1 already and uploaded it - available from tomorrow.
I've studied also the makeconvert.pl script changes, that Wookey did in his Debian distribution, and it seems to me, that we've not understood correctly. The projection stays in export command, but is inserted via option.
E.g. if you want to export map of extended profile, you enter into thconfig file:
export map -proj extended
(previosly it has been "export map extended").
OK - I fixed that (as it was easy)
The other thing for Debian distribution - at least at man pages is written, that therion tex and mpost macros are installed into /usr/share/texmf/... directory. But from version 0.2.13, therion don't need these macros! They're compiled in therion executable - so no additional tex or metapost configuration is needed! If you will remove them - nothing will happen and therion continue to work.
and done that. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
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