Thanx to Marco for his really useful therion by example (although none of the pictures appear for me in the dillo browser - is this a feature of the way the wiki works, or are they currently missing?) I have started drawing cross-sections. It's incredibly tedious. I hope I am missing some tricks to speed things up. Drawing the x-sect line, point and outline is OK. But the part about the scrap-scale is a real faff. My x-sects are drawn on the plan alongside the cave, and their natural scale is 'the same as the plan'. It would be nice if there was some way to specify the scale as 'like scrap foo'. On non-graph paper it is very hard to determine the correct 'real size'. Nothing in the drawing view shows me scale to guestimate from. I had to go and run aven to get the length of a nearby leg which had stations marked on the drawing, then compare that to the x-sect size. This is why 'same scale as scrap foo' would be so useful. The biggest problem is finding the corner-markers. Took me a little while to realise they were only visible when the scrap line is selected. But then on a large scan they are impossible to find. The only way I could find them was click on a section point and note co-ords, go back to the scrap line and type in the co=ords so that the red marker appears over the section point and can be moved to the top-right/bottom-left corner. Especially when you have a load of xsects to do, all of which have the same scale, some better way is needed than the above. How do others do it? I have added a para to Marco's doc on the wiki about this. BTW I want to put this (marco's) doc into the Debian Therion package as it is really useful. Can we generate HTML from the current wiki version easily? (I think this may have been answered before - must check the archive). Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://wookware.org/
On 2006-12-21 08:42 +0100, Martin Sluka wrote:
On 21.12.2006, at 0:16, Wookey wrote:
The biggest problem is finding the corner-markers.
There is a simple trick - just zoom out the scale of editation window to 25 % -and move those red squares by mouse.
OK, yes, that works, but it takes 40 seconds to zoom in and another 40 seconds to zoom out again (on the largish file I have open right now), so it is still slow and tedious. Also at this scale it is not possible to see the cross-section I wish to place the scale marks next to (obscrured by therion point blobs) so putting them in the right place is difficult. I can see that this would work quite well for small enough files/fast enough computers. It should go in the wiki. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://wookware.org/
Wookey napsal(a):
Thanx to Marco for his really useful therion by example (although none of the pictures appear for me in the dillo browser - is this a feature of the way the wiki works, or are they currently missing?)
Pictures are back on the right place. Sorry. It happens during wiki moving to the therion.speleo.sk web site subdirectory.
BTW I want to put this (marco's) doc into the Debian Therion package as it is really useful. Can we generate HTML from the current wiki version easily? (I think this may have been answered before - must check the archive).
Yes it could be done via script. I can generate HTML version of whole wiki or any of the existing namespaces. So just let me know I will prepare a cron script for offline version generation. It could be also downloadable from web page as compressed archive. L.
Here you can find my first outdated attempt to generate HTML version. I need to finalize output template but it works... http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/export/ L. Ladislav Blazek napsal(a):
Wookey napsal(a):
Thanx to Marco for his really useful therion by example (although none of the pictures appear for me in the dillo browser - is this a feature of the way the wiki works, or are they currently missing?)
Pictures are back on the right place. Sorry. It happens during wiki moving to the therion.speleo.sk web site subdirectory.
BTW I want to put this (marco's) doc into the Debian Therion package as it is really useful. Can we generate HTML from the current wiki version easily? (I think this may have been answered before - must check the archive).
Yes it could be done via script. I can generate HTML version of whole wiki or any of the existing namespaces. So just let me know I will prepare a cron script for offline version generation. It could be also downloadable from web page as compressed archive.
L.
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-- Ladislav Blazek
On 2006-12-21 10:02 +0100, Ladislav Blazek wrote:
Here you can find my first outdated attempt to generate HTML version. I need to finalize output template but it works... http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/export/
OK. Thanx for that - very useful. I have incorporated it into a new therion-doc package. I note that the image image_example0.png from http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php?id=tbe:wiki3 was a) called image_example0.gif in en-tbe-wiki3.html and b) not in media/en/tbe/ (I have fixed and included this in the therion package) Also the image http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/lib/exe/detail.php?id=tbe%3Awiki3&cache=cache&... is nmissing from the on-line wiki (and the export). Having 'next page' links in the documents would be nice if possible. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://wookware.org/
Quoting Wookey <wookey@aleph1.co.uk>:
alongside the cave, and their natural scale is 'the same as the plan'. It would be nice if there was some way to specify the scale as 'like scrap foo'.
By default, when you insert scrap, the scale is set up to scale of last scrap edited. So theoretically, you need to set scale once and then just insert new scraps. I need to have a look, what can I do about -scale-like option.
The biggest problem is finding the corner-markers.
100% agree. Shame on me :( I see following improvements easy to code: 1. Adding a thick red arrow joining scale markers. 2. Adding a button that will put scale markers + arrow into center of current screen. Would it help you? Do you see other solutions? S.
On 2006-12-21 13:11 +0100, Stacho Mudrak wrote:
Quoting Wookey <wookey@aleph1.co.uk>:
alongside the cave, and their natural scale is 'the same as the plan'. It would be nice if there was some way to specify the scale as 'like scrap foo'.
By default, when you insert scrap, the scale is set up to scale of last scrap edited. So theoretically, you need to set scale once and then just insert new scraps.
OK - that should help. The problem with the whole 'move two squares and set corner co-ords' is that it is rather innacurate. ther can be quite large errors in x-sect drawins and these are amplified by this method. If that scale is then repeated for all the x-sects in a file you could easy end up with them all being 20% too big.
I need to have a look, what can I do about -scale-like option.
A scale taken from the overall map (properly scaled with stations) is that it is much more likely to be correct, and a typical avergae (not a value from the ends of the bell curve, which you might get using a random x-sect to scale all the others). So this seems to me to be much better (as well as much quicker).
The biggest problem is finding the corner-markers.
100% agree. Shame on me :(
I see following improvements easy to code: 1. Adding a thick red arrow joining scale markers. 2. Adding a button that will put scale markers + arrow into center of current screen. Would it help you? Do you see other solutions?
Moving the two markers to the middle would suit me best (as to draw x-sects I am always zoomed in to max 400%, so even a big arrow could take a while to find). Could you get confused as to which marker is which and thusaccidentally reverse the x-sect? If so them either make them diff shapes or colours, or put them slightly to corners. Really I don't want to move markers - I want to place them by clicking on corner points. That would be very quick and easy. So think a button for 'next two clicks place scale markers' would be best - but maybe that is not easy to code? There is a whole load of other stuff to do with grouping x-sects and auto-placing them in a box/area, and labelling section lines and corresponding sections that also needs to be addressed, but I think that is already on the to-do list. Therion ought to make sorting out sections easier but in fact it current makes it slightly harder than hand-drawing (which was already very tedious). Terikan is a good example of a cave where sections next to passages doesn't work very well - too many underlying and overlying layers. We have a general (and very difficult) problem of what to do about labels and sections in the presence of over/under lying passages. I am not yet sure what the answers are but there is definately much room for improvement. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://wookware.org/
Quoting Wookey <wookey@aleph1.co.uk>:
A scale taken from the overall map (properly scaled with stations) is that it is much more likely to be correct, and a typical avergae (not a value from the ends of the bell curve, which you might get using a random x-sect to scale all the others). So this seems to me to be much better (as well as much quicker).
But if you scaprs drawn in different scales? And what about rotation? I think it is difficult.
Could you get confused as to which marker is which and thusaccidentally reverse the x-sect? If so them either make them diff shapes or colours, or put them slightly to corners.
This is, why I wanted to have there an arrow - it will point from first to second marker.
for 'next two clicks place scale markers' would be best - but maybe that is not easy to code?
No idea, I need to have a look. May be adding another "RED" mode is feasible.
We have a general (and very difficult) problem of what to do about labels and sections in the presence of over/under lying passages. I am not yet sure what the answers are but there is definately much room for improvement.
Agree. S.
On 2006-12-21 14:26 +0100, Stacho Mudrak wrote:
Quoting Wookey <wookey@aleph1.co.uk>:
A scale taken from the overall map (properly scaled with stations) is that it is much more likely to be correct, and a typical avergae (not a value from the ends of the bell curve, which you might get using a random x-sect to scale all the others). So this seems to me to be much better (as well as much quicker).
But if you scaprs drawn in different scales?
Then you need to move the corner-markers instead of take scale from plan scrap.
And what about rotation? I think it is difficult.
Yes - I was thinking about scale, not rotation - often some sections are drawn with different local 'up', at least in original notes. Again these awkward ones could just be done as they are now, although it would be useful to be able to say 'scale like scrap foo, rotation nn'.
Could you get confused as to which marker is which and thusaccidentally reverse the x-sect? If so them either make them diff shapes or colours, or put them slightly to corners.
This is, why I wanted to have there an arrow - it will point from first to second marker.
Makes sense. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://wookware.org/
Quoting Wookey <wookey@aleph1.co.uk>:
Really I don't want to move markers - I want to place them by clicking on corner points. That would be very quick and easy.
Try today's developement snapshot (OK - if having problems with 0.4.0, just cd xtherion, make and copy only xtherion). Instead of "scale" label, there is Scale button. If you will press it, you should be able to click both scaling points very fast. S.
On 2006-12-21 16:44 +0100, Stacho Mudrak wrote:
Quoting Wookey <wookey@aleph1.co.uk>:
Really I don't want to move markers - I want to place them by clicking on corner points. That would be very quick and easy.
Try today's developement snapshot (OK - if having problems with 0.4.0, just cd xtherion, make and copy only xtherion).
Instead of "scale" label, there is Scale button. If you will press it, you should be able to click both scaling points very fast.
OK, thanx for that Stacho - that works well and is a huge improvement. Cross-sections are _still_ too laborious though (It's just taken me about 5 hours to draw 20 (and some floor detail, and move labels around etc)) I'll write some notes on interface changes shortly. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://wookware.org/
participants (4)
-
Ladislav Blazek -
Martin Sluka -
Stacho Mudrak -
Wookey