OK, after a major drawing session, here are a few general comments on therion/xtherion. I'll send a seaprate mail with things specific to my project: 1) I get very bored of typing '-subtype invisible' after clicking on border. Somekind of shortcut for selecting commonly-used subtypes would be really useful. A dropdown showing available subtypes according to selcted line would be a simple way to do it (and would help when you are not quite sure which ones are available). But having border (invisible) in the main menu next to border would really help. The problem is that people's favourite lines probably vary with person and cave, so being able to configure this might be best. (ctrl-B or ctrl-I to select it would be good for me). This implies a general mechanism for configuring key shortcuts or favoured line-types, which may not be easy. But anything would be better than typing '-subtype invisible' hundreds of times. 2) cross-section drawing. Overall this is still very tedious - there are various things that could be done to make it better. scale: The new update scale button is a big help, but I still find I have to do things like look up the length of a nearby plan line in the .svx file in order to find the LRUD info or otherwise get a scale so I can then set the scale by using the stations (and rotating top right point so line is at approx 45 degrees). This seems such a waste of time when the passage width is right there next to the section, and clearly the scale should match. I can't easily tell if the passage is 2, 5, or 20m wide, but therion already knows. Perhaps the scale for X on an xsect could default to the same as the dist between the walls under the section line (and Y is same as X), and N is up the page? Then the drawer can change that if it is not right. scrap names: I got very bored of creating a scrap then having to select it and change the name to <scrapname>_c1 or whatever. Can x-sects be set to have such a scrapname by default, incrementing the number? Part of the problem is that there is no link between the x-sect scrap and the section line on the plan/elevation. Only the point has a link. It seems to me that xsections are logical entities and making sure all of the line, the scrap and the point are associated is a good thing, which will help with the grouping of sections into boxes when that is implemented. Associated with this is the need to give each section a 'display name' or label like 'E3' or whatever. Have I just missed this facility? 3) xtherion should warn you when you accidentally create lines outside of a scrap. It is easy to do and slow/fiddly to put right. Is there ever a valid reason for creating lines outside a scrap? I can't think of one. Automatically removing null lines might be useful (a line entry that just has one point and does nothing but confuse - are these ever useful)? 4) The xtherion interface needs more work on shortcuts generally as we use it so intensively. More keyboard options for chanigng between common line and point types and moving to next scrap in the scroll list. e.g only showing lines in the current scrap and showing lines from other scraps collapsed or greyed might do the trick? 5) I don't believe the 'right click to select line hidden below' is working. When I have a line at a scrap join on both scraps (because there is an area join here), I can only selectone line. I have to move it out of the way to get the other one. 6) I need a much faster computer and/or more RAM. :-) Large files take forever to load or change scale. pdf rendering takes minutes too, and I can't open a browser and aven and xtherion and a PDF file all at once. xtherion can get left a long way behind (but at least it does do all thing you asked eventually). This part is not your fault, although the tcl of xtherion doesn't help - that is a really big job to fix, although finding someone to re-write it in gtk would be very good 7) General issue of mixing cave- and map- and project-specific layout options. There are layout options that you want to set globally for the project (e.g. symbol types), options you want to set for the cave (name, rotate, author), and options you want to set just for this plot (map-header position, exclude pages). It is currently difficult to set this up so that it works well. The newish 'copy' and 'input' commands ought to provide the right flexibility but I keep finding I am inheriting some inappropriate settings. I'm not sure about this - it probably isn't therion's fault, but I get the feeling it could be made a lot easier for users to separate the various types of layout option. I'll have to think about this. OK, that'll do for now. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://wookware.org/
On 27.12.2006, at 1:26, Wookey wrote:
This implies a general mechanism for configuring key shortcuts or favoured line-types, which may not be easy. But anything would be better than typing '-subtype invisible' hundreds of times.
I'm not linux user but under macos and win too are tools named "macro recorders" May you use such a tool instead? To record the sequence of clicks and key presses and add to it a shortcut to repeat it. Martin
On Wednesday 27 December 2006 01:26, Wookey wrote:
ctrl-I to select it would be good for me). This implies a general mechanism for configuring key shortcuts or favoured line-types, which may not be easy. But anything would be better than typing '-subtype invisible' hundreds of times.
Agree. I will think about some general shortcut mechanism. May be, it would be worth to have possibility to specify subtypes in type specification: e.g. border:invisible (and having this in types list).
scale: The new update scale button is a big help, but I still find I have to do things like look up the length of a nearby plan line in the .svx file in order to find the LRUD info or otherwise get a scale so I can then set the scale by using the stations (and rotating top right point so line is at approx 45 degrees). This seems such a waste of time when the passage width is right there next to the section, and clearly the scale should match. I can't easily tell if the passage is 2, 5, or 20m wide, but therion already knows. Perhaps the scale for X on an xsect could default to the same as the dist between the walls under the section line (and Y is same as X), and N is up the page? Then the drawer can change that if it is not right.
Sounds very interesting. I will think about it.
scrap names: I got very bored of creating a scrap then having to select it and change the name to <scrapname>_c1 or whatever. Can x-sects be set to have such a scrapname by default, incrementing the number?
In principle, this should be possible.
Part of the problem is that there is no link between the x-sect scrap and the section line on the plan/elevation. Only the point has a link. It seems to me that xsections are logical entities and making sure all of the line, the scrap and the point are associated is a good thing, which will help with the grouping of sections into boxes when that is implemented. Associated with this is the need to give each section a 'display name' or label like 'E3' or whatever. Have I just missed this facility?
No, this is not yet possible. And associating section line with secion scrap is definitely needed. In the far future, this information should be used in 3D model generation from plan and cross sections. But this also implies, that "line section" should have exactly two points. I think it is a very good idea, I will put it in the TODO list.
3) xtherion should warn you when you accidentally create lines outside of a scrap. It is easy to do and slow/fiddly to put right. Is there ever a valid reason for creating lines outside a scrap? I can't think of one.
No there is no reason. But as far as I know, it is already possible to insert line outside of a scrap only in some rare cases (e.g. "end of file" is selected). I will try to fix it.
Automatically removing null lines might be useful (a line entry that just has one point and does nothing but confuse - are these ever useful)?
It is already in the TODO list.
4) The xtherion interface needs more work on shortcuts generally as we use it so intensively. More keyboard options for chanigng between common line and point types and moving to next scrap in the scroll list. e.g only showing lines in the current scrap and showing lines from other scraps collapsed or greyed might do the trick?
Selecting scrap and areas is already possible using toolbar buttons. Making shortcuts for them is may be a good idea.
5) I don't believe the 'right click to select line hidden below' is working. When I have a line at a scrap join on both scraps (because there is an area join here), I can only selectone line. I have to move it out of the way to get the other one.
Agree, it works only when a line point is right-clicked. I will try to fix it.
6) really big job to fix, although finding someone to re-write it in gtk would be very good
Yes. But when I was working on loch I have realized, that coding UI in some other languages then TclTk takes cca. 10x more time and it is very difficult to keep it platform independent :( It looks, even with 3D viewer, I will return to TclTk (with C++ codes for some faster calculations).
settings. I'm not sure about this - it probably isn't therion's fault, but I get the feeling it could be made a lot easier for users to separate the various types of layout option. I'll have to think about this.
There were few options in the layout first (mostly TeX and metapost codes), a lot of them were added later, so it is not very logical structure now. May be it would be worth to split it somehow into more elements. Regards, S.
On 2006-12-28 11:18 +0100, Stacho Mudrak wrote:
On Wednesday 27 December 2006 01:26, Wookey wrote:
Thanx for the feedback Stacho, and taking all my complaints about your software so well :-) - here are a few more comments in response.
May be, it would be worth to have possibility to specify subtypes in type specification: e.g. border:invisible (and having this in types list).
That would be easy and a major improvement. The list is already a bit long (because I use wall and border, at opposite ends of the list 90% of the time) but making the drop-down long enough to show the whole list would fix that.
Part of the problem is that there is no link between the x-sect scrap and the section line on the plan/elevation. Only the point has a link. It seems to me that xsections are logical entities and making sure all of the line, the scrap and the point are associated is a good thing, which will help with the grouping of sections into boxes when that is implemented. Associated with this is the need to give each section a 'display name' or label like 'E3' or whatever. Have I just missed this facility?
No, this is not yet possible. And associating section line with secion scrap is definitely needed. In the far future, this information should be used in 3D model generation from plan and cross sections. But this also implies, that "line section" should have exactly two points.
The 3d model part implies exactly 2 points? I can think of (very rare) cases where a section line has a kink in the middle, because this shows a more representative section. A two-point section line would prevent this. It would be nice to consider keeping this, but ultimately auto-3d model generation is more important and useful.
3) xtherion should warn you when you accidentally create lines outside of a scrap. It is easy to do and slow/fiddly to put right. Is there ever a valid reason for creating lines outside a scrap? I can't think of one.
No there is no reason. But as far as I know, it is already possible to insert line outside of a scrap only in some rare cases (e.g. "end of file" is selected). I will try to fix it.
I managed to get them entered in the middle of the file, whilst doing cross-sections. I don't recall how. I think it is because when doing this you have to select the 'scrp' line itself in order to fiddle with scale markers. Then if you just do an insert of something it goes above the scrap line and so between this scrap and the one before. One workaround would be to allow moving several lines at once. This is also very useful when you find you need to split a large scrap up (which is quite common, especially if you are not already an expert, so some of your scrap are not ideal). being able to select a set of lines and move them all, rather than one by one (waiting for the redraws every time) would be great.
4) The xtherion interface needs more work on shortcuts generally as we use it so intensively. More keyboard options for chanigng between common line and point types and moving to next scrap in the scroll list. e.g only showing lines in the current scrap and showing lines from other scraps collapsed or greyed might do the trick?
Selecting scrap and areas is already possible using toolbar buttons. Making shortcuts for them is may be a good idea.
Yes, the toolbar is useful. One way to deal with the 'common actions' problem would be to add things here like 'insert line border:invisible'
5) I don't believe the 'right click to select line hidden below' is working. When I have a line at a scrap join on both scraps (because there is an area join here), I can only selectone line. I have to move it out of the way to get the other one.
Agree, it works only when a line point is right-clicked. I will try to fix it.
Ah yes - I just found that in wiki. I was trying to do it on the line itself.
6) really big job to fix, although finding someone to re-write it in gtk would be very good
Yes. But when I was working on loch I have realized, that coding UI in some other languages then TclTk takes cca. 10x more time and it is very difficult to keep it platform independent :(
It looks, even with 3D viewer, I will return to TclTk (with C++ codes for some faster calculations).
Agreed - there is no good solution here, but speed is a big issue for me - part of the reason therion takes a long time is the speed of the interface. I spent a _lot_ of the time waiting. OK. I will soon get a faster machine, but this machine is adequate for most jobs, and the interface is not doing things _that_ hard. it should be possible to make it faster. I ought to try and look myself but of course I am short of time and tcl expertise. Oh, and one item I forgot: One thing I really miss is an easy way to say 'find this area'. Often I see an area, and there is no visual indication wether it has been entered or not. If lines which are included in an area showed this always, that would be very helpful. Some kind of indication over the area itself would be even better but I think the design means that xtherion can't do that. Perhaps the simplest would be a 'show me areas containing this line' button. Something to think about. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://wookware.org/
participants (3)
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Martin Sluka -
Stacho Mudrak -
Wookey