On 8.2.2008, at 12:50, Stefan Oswald wrote:

We draw on therion in our caving club, but we have a few problems, which i want to report to you, we also have made a little "brainstorming"...

It is always very difficult to introduce new people, no software engineers, into therion, also i had great problems. The map editor user interface gives many options, but thereby it is not really easy to handle, the same with the layout. It is difficult to produce a good looking plan-layout with text and so on. A generall icon-interface, such as most leading CAD programmes use would be much more efficient in our opinion. Is this planed in final version?

In Therion you draw something and you do not know what it will exactly look like. For handling the Programm it would be easyer if you could immediately see the result without pressing F9, opening the .pdf, take a look at the result, close it again (Windows) and return to therion. just an idea. Also showing other scraps (.th2 files) in map editor, as with CAD for Cavers (Autocad) would be an option.

To abstract we mean placing focus on usability would make it easyer for many people using therion, not only in our club.

Hi Stefan, you are absolutely right, your arguments or wishes are evergreen from the very beginning of therion. BUT, therion is a piece of software "as is". It was made by two men (with help of several others). Both authors are very busy now and there is no any space to rewrite for example xtherion map editor from scratch. Another BUT - the format of data is open, the source code is available. So there is theoretically no any problem to make new map editor for therion. Wysiwyg, with menus, icons, etc., etc. AND compatible with Linux, MacOSX and Windows. AND free. Good luck Martin

Quoting Stefan Oswald <stefan_oswald@gmx.at>:

We draw on therion in our caving club, but we have a few problems, which i want to report to you, we also have made a little "brainstorming"...

Thanks for your feedback. You are asking very difficult questions, but I will try to answer...

It is always very difficult to introduce new people, no software engineers, into therion, also i had great problems.

You are right, but...

From time to time we get a crazy idea - that we will start programming much more simple therion again from the scratch. But when we start to analyze again all functionality that is definitely needed, we are not able to find data model, that is much more simple than current state.

The map editor user interface gives many options, but thereby it is not really easy to handle, the same with the layout. It is difficult to produce a good looking plan-layout with text and so on.

Well, I am afraid you will never get really good looking map with all bells and whistles from therion. Our goal was to have a system, where we can have complete, up to date and very flexible documentation of the cave. For this, we are now paying price of good looking cave map. But if you have several tens of km cave with multiple levels and passages that connects to each other - even schematic map in therion is a pain, not a precisely drawn map with all the details... At least in our situation, when we do not have a lot of free time...

A generall icon-interface, such as most leading CAD programmes use would be much more efficient in our opinion. Is this planed in final version?

The main problem of therion user interface is, that it is not standard vector drawing interface. Here I 100% agree. But I am afraid - I have no resources to start working on another CADlike interface.

In Therion you draw something and you do not know what it will exactly look like. For handling the Programm it would be easyer if you could immediately see the result without pressing F9, opening the .pdf, take a look at the result, close it again (Windows) and return to therion. just an idea.

On Windows it is a problem of acrobat reader - I usually use ghostscript, when I need check how it looks frequently. I have tried several times to control Acrobat Reader from xtherion - but without success. I do not know, what is going wrong - but from version to version, Adobe Acrobat Reader has different behaviour when controled from other program. I would like to add some features to xtherion in this case (e.g. showing some symbols instead of simple dots). But it is only in TODO.

Also showing other scraps (.th2 files) in map editor, as with CAD for Cavers (Autocad) would be an option.

Yes, it would be great. But I am afraid - with the current state of the code in xtherion, this is not possible...

To abstract we mean placing focus on usability would make it easyer for many people using therion, not only in our club.

This would be great, but it implies very deep changes in the system design and currently I have no resources to do that. When I started therion - I was single and student. Now I am married, I am working and I have three little children. I am really happy if I find time to fix bugs, add little features or go to the cave :) Best regards, S.