Big room multiple scraps - How to join
Hello everyone - I am having a problem getting Therion to understand how to join several scraps to make a large room. The working map is at https://campercaver.net/MiscFiles/StarkCavernsNoCenter.pdf Take a look at the east part of the map in an area called Grand Canyon. This is really one large room, though we did not realize that when we started sketching several years ago. Now I have at least three different pieces of sketch to try and fit together. As you can see, there is a large triangle in the center which Therion thinks is not cave. There are also some part which are outside the cave, but are considered by Therion to be inside. All of the joins in here are using line-to-line. I named the lines, then created "join" statements specifying the two lines and which points on those lines to join. Therion is happy with that, and the wall that it draws is a fair depiction of the area. The problem is that much of the interior is getting lost. I have not tried to use plain joins of the scraps - joins which do not specify the lines. I suspect that would not change much. I have already drawn some of this area three times. It is extraordinarily complicated due to multiple levels, especially along the east side. We thought for a long time that the east side was separate passages, but it is really just a complicated pile of big breakdown blocks. I really REALLY do not want to go back and make one huge sketch of the entire room. That would take several days. What can I do to convince Therion where the cave really is? Can I put in some invisible walls (subtype hidden)? Thanks! -- =============== Bill Gee
Hi Bill,
Hello everyone - I am having a problem getting Therion to understand how to join several scraps to make a large room.
The best advice; never begin or end a survey at a junction! Always survey through the junction in one surveying trip, so that one survey "owns" the entire junction itself, and other surveying trips own the branches off it. Draw a chamber, and starts of the passages (at the same level) leading out of it, as a single scrap. Now that you have not done that, you face a common problem. Thankfully, it can be easily solved, but you will need some creative "join" commands. 1. Draw invisible walls from the opening of one passage, leading into the middle of the chamber. That is a subtype of normal walls. Do the same with If you manage to do it well enough, the lines all match up well enough to colour the whole chamber. And potentially, a standard "join" command on the scraps can make it link them all nicely. 2. OK, reality; your chamber is going to be awkward. Joins will not be so easy to join because there are not stations perfectly on the joins on a wall, and you will probably not be able to use a standard scrap join. You will need to use line joins. Every line that needs a join, needs an ID attribute. in survey from "trunk" passage: trunkeast (visible east wall of the passage) trunkwest (visible wast wall of the passage) chamberdivide (invisible wall) in survey from "side" passage: sidenorth sidesouth chamberdividenorth etc. then you can join all the line points to make them connect perfectly: join trunkeast@trunk:0 chamberdivide@trunk:end sidenorth@side:end chamberdividenorth@side:0 -smooth off join chamberdivide@trunk:0 chamberdividenorth@side:end -smooth off etc. you will need one join statement for every line point that needs to connect to another one. This way you can fill the chamber with enough walls to fill the space with colour. Does that all make sense? Tarquin
Thanks Tarquin. I suspected some sort of game with invisible walls would be required. I will see if I can get something useful to happen. There are lots of features that will cross those walls, so I will be making extensive use of "-clip off". I already join lines by points: join I1-1-I1-12_1:end I10bcd_2:0 join I1-I15_3:0 I1-I2_1:end join I1-8_2:0 I1-I15_2:end join I1-I15_3:end I1-1-I1-12_1:0 join I10wall1:0 I1-I15_2:0 join I10wall2:0 I1-I15_4:end join I10bcd_1:end I1-I15_5:0 A thought occurred as I was writing this. There is one survey station about in the middle of the white triangle which is present on all of the sketches. I wonder if I can draw invisible walls to that station? Might that help everything fit together? Should be fairly easy to try. I have considered trying to get all the sketches mangled together in a single JPG file to use as the drawing background. The problem with that is some of the sketch is done at 20 feet to the inch and some at 10 feet to the inch. Resizing everything to match would take some doing. I am sure GIMP can do it, if only I knew how to use it. Hindsight is, of course, 20/20. If I knew then what I know now, I would have sketched the whole room as one big scrap. It would have taken several trips, but it could all fit on one sheet of paper. =============== Bill Gee On 8/2/23 10:44, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion wrote:
Hi Bill,
Hello everyone - I am having a problem getting Therion to understand how to join several scraps to make a large room.
The best advice; never begin or end a survey at a junction! Always survey through the junction in one surveying trip, so that one survey "owns" the entire junction itself, and other surveying trips own the branches off it.
Draw a chamber, and starts of the passages (at the same level) leading out of it, as a single scrap.
Now that you have not done that, you face a common problem. Thankfully, it can be easily solved, but you will need some creative "join" commands.
1. Draw invisible walls from the opening of one passage, leading into the middle of the chamber. That is a subtype of normal walls. Do the same with If you manage to do it well enough, the lines all match up well enough to colour the whole chamber. And potentially, a standard "join" command on the scraps can make it link them all nicely.
2. OK, reality; your chamber is going to be awkward. Joins will not be so easy to join because there are not stations perfectly on the joins on a wall, and you will probably not be able to use a standard scrap join. You will need to use line joins.
Every line that needs a join, needs an ID attribute.
in survey from "trunk" passage: trunkeast (visible east wall of the passage) trunkwest (visible wast wall of the passage) chamberdivide (invisible wall)
in survey from "side" passage: sidenorth sidesouth chamberdividenorth
etc.
then you can join all the line points to make them connect perfectly:
join trunkeast@trunk:0 chamberdivide@trunk:end sidenorth@side:end chamberdividenorth@side:0 -smooth off
join chamberdivide@trunk:0 chamberdividenorth@side:end -smooth off
etc.
you will need one join statement for every line point that needs to connect to another one.
This way you can fill the chamber with enough walls to fill the space with colour.
Does that all make sense?
Tarquin _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
There are lots of features that will cross those walls, so I will be making extensive use of "-clip off".
That is entirely up to where you draw your invisible walls. I would try not to allow them to go through any area fills, but you can join feature lines too, so either clip off, or two separate lines with a join. The reason Therion struggles with your drawing is that your gaps are bigger than the passage width. It needs gaps in the walls to be narrower than the width across a passage. It tries to close gaps with the "nearest end of a wall", which is the far side of the passage, instead of the wide gap. You can leave gaps, just not such wide ones. So if needed, an invisible wall across the mouth of a passage (that is not in the current scrap) might help.
A thought occurred as I was writing this. There is one survey station about in the middle of the white triangle which is present on all of the sketches. I wonder if I can draw invisible walls to that station? Might that help everything fit together? Should be fairly easy to try.
That sounds like something worth trying. It will be a case of suck-it-and-see.
I have considered trying to get all the sketches mangled together in a single JPG file to use as the drawing background. The problem with that is some of the sketch is done at 20 feet to the inch and some at 10 feet to the inch. Resizing everything to match would take some doing. I am sure GIMP can do it, if only I knew how to use it.
It can, but we're getting quite off topic for this mailing list if you want a tutorial on Gimp too...
Hindsight is, of course, 20/20. If I knew then what I know now, I would have sketched the whole room as one big scrap.
This is always the issue with surveying during exploration, rather than surveying after exploration. A grade 1 helps plan the grade 5+. It is something you can expect to happen. We hit the same issue in one of mine - a collapse chamber with loads of walls that are actually not walls. You don't realise until afterwards.
Hi bill, Could you set up a map for just that chamber which will then join all the sketches and export the .th2 for it. When you then subsequently export that .th2 to pdf, you do not need the joins and therefore do not lose any of the detail. Regards, Alastair Gott. Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> on behalf of Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2023 4:28:05 PM To: Therion Mail List <therion@speleo.sk> Subject: [Therion] Big room multiple scraps - How to join Hello everyone - I am having a problem getting Therion to understand how to join several scraps to make a large room. The working map is at https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcampercaver.net%2FMiscFiles%2FStarkCavernsNoCenter.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7C9c8f11c9727b4d3cf07108db936d2187%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638265869140778678%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BmgbyseQrvzpE7OkIVQzqkimViOE0Xm7nNobpMemVvw%3D&reserved=0<https://campercaver.net/MiscFiles/StarkCavernsNoCenter.pdf> Take a look at the east part of the map in an area called Grand Canyon. This is really one large room, though we did not realize that when we started sketching several years ago. Now I have at least three different pieces of sketch to try and fit together. As you can see, there is a large triangle in the center which Therion thinks is not cave. There are also some part which are outside the cave, but are considered by Therion to be inside. All of the joins in here are using line-to-line. I named the lines, then created "join" statements specifying the two lines and which points on those lines to join. Therion is happy with that, and the wall that it draws is a fair depiction of the area. The problem is that much of the interior is getting lost. I have not tried to use plain joins of the scraps - joins which do not specify the lines. I suspect that would not change much. I have already drawn some of this area three times. It is extraordinarily complicated due to multiple levels, especially along the east side. We thought for a long time that the east side was separate passages, but it is really just a complicated pile of big breakdown blocks. I really REALLY do not want to go back and make one huge sketch of the entire room. That would take several days. What can I do to convince Therion where the cave really is? Can I put in some invisible walls (subtype hidden)? Thanks! -- =============== Bill Gee _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=05%7C01%7C%7C9c8f11c9727b4d3cf07108db936d2187%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638265869140778678%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HYijHjsXdRWESe3nnA4oTzz%2Fro1w5VrS4fF4qVBesSs%3D&reserved=0<https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion>
Bill As Tarquin points out, looks to me like scraps with openings wider than the scrap is long. The solution is invisible walls along the interior joins. Another thing to check is that all the walls have the correct orientation - all the left-side yellow ticks point to the interior of the passage (if not for pdf outputs, it still helps for models). And that wall -outline is set correctly to out, in or none. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Bill Gee Sent: Thursday, 3 August 2023 03:28 To: Therion Mail List <therion@speleo.sk> Subject: [Therion] Big room multiple scraps - How to join Hello everyone - I am having a problem getting Therion to understand how to join several scraps to make a large room. The working map is at https://campercaver.net/MiscFiles/StarkCavernsNoCenter.pdf Take a look at the east part of the map in an area called Grand Canyon. This is really one large room, though we did not realize that when we started sketching several years ago. Now I have at least three different pieces of sketch to try and fit together. As you can see, there is a large triangle in the center which Therion thinks is not cave. There are also some part which are outside the cave, but are considered by Therion to be inside. All of the joins in here are using line-to-line. I named the lines, then created "join" statements specifying the two lines and which points on those lines to join. Therion is happy with that, and the wall that it draws is a fair depiction of the area. The problem is that much of the interior is getting lost. I have not tried to use plain joins of the scraps - joins which do not specify the lines. I suspect that would not change much. I have already drawn some of this area three times. It is extraordinarily complicated due to multiple levels, especially along the east side. We thought for a long time that the east side was separate passages, but it is really just a complicated pile of big breakdown blocks. I really REALLY do not want to go back and make one huge sketch of the entire room. That would take several days. What can I do to convince Therion where the cave really is? Can I put in some invisible walls (subtype hidden)? Thanks! -- =============== Bill Gee _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Update: Thank you everyone for suggestions. I think I have conquered (more or less) this problem by using some invisible walls. Results at https://campercaver.net/MiscFiles/StarkCavernsNoCenter-1.pdf For comparison the old map is still there: https://campercaver.net/MiscFiles/StarkCavernsNoCenter.pdf There is some overlap which shows in the background coloring. The overlaps are a bit darker than the rest. I am not too concerned about that. It is not a rocket ship - Does not have to be perfect. There are no new join statements. I just added invisible walls to the scraps I did have scraps wider than deep, which several people pointed out is a problem. I checked all the wall orientations, as Bruce suggested. They were all correct. My habit is to draw walls counter-clockwise which should result in correct orientation. As Tarquin pointed out - We should have surveyed the whole room before we surveyed the room. Hindsight is 20/20! Next time I know better. That does fly in the face of a common American caving practice which is to survey as you go. Scooping is frowned on. Sometimes, though, you really need to scoop the passage before taking survey shots. Of course I found a new problem! That will be another thread. =============== Bill Gee On 8/2/23 15:05, Bruce Mutton wrote:
Bill As Tarquin points out, looks to me like scraps with openings wider than the scrap is long. The solution is invisible walls along the interior joins. Another thing to check is that all the walls have the correct orientation - all the left-side yellow ticks point to the interior of the passage (if not for pdf outputs, it still helps for models). And that wall -outline is set correctly to out, in or none.
Bruce
-----Original Message----- From: Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Bill Gee Sent: Thursday, 3 August 2023 03:28 To: Therion Mail List <therion@speleo.sk> Subject: [Therion] Big room multiple scraps - How to join
Hello everyone - I am having a problem getting Therion to understand how to join several scraps to make a large room. The working map is at
https://campercaver.net/MiscFiles/StarkCavernsNoCenter.pdf
Take a look at the east part of the map in an area called Grand Canyon. This is really one large room, though we did not realize that when we started sketching several years ago. Now I have at least three different pieces of sketch to try and fit together.
As you can see, there is a large triangle in the center which Therion thinks is not cave. There are also some part which are outside the cave, but are considered by Therion to be inside.
All of the joins in here are using line-to-line. I named the lines, then created "join" statements specifying the two lines and which points on those lines to join. Therion is happy with that, and the wall that it draws is a fair depiction of the area. The problem is that much of the interior is getting lost.
I have not tried to use plain joins of the scraps - joins which do not specify the lines. I suspect that would not change much.
I have already drawn some of this area three times. It is extraordinarily complicated due to multiple levels, especially along the east side. We thought for a long time that the east side was separate passages, but it is really just a complicated pile of big breakdown blocks.
I really REALLY do not want to go back and make one huge sketch of the entire room. That would take several days.
What can I do to convince Therion where the cave really is? Can I put in some invisible walls (subtype hidden)?
Thanks!
-- =============== Bill Gee _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
participants (4)
-
alastair gott -
Bill Gee -
Bruce Mutton -
Tarquin Wilton-Jones