Gradient out of range - does not process
Hello I thought that there was a way I could stop the out of range error, but I cannot now find it. It would be an a useful command to have as instead of negative readings we got readings between 270 and 359, which although strange is valid. In survex readings over 90 are just a warning, which seems far more sensible, the problem is that I don't think that I can enter the data in survex either without conversion as I don't think that degrees minutes and seconds can be entered. So I'm stuck with data that I have to convert, for different reasons depending on whether I use survex of therion. Here is part of the file, I have quiet a few survey centreline data normal from to clino compass tape ignoreall 1 2 1:08:25 83:37:40 17.88 2 3 00:00:00 -:-:- 0.055 3 - 02:39:00 266:49:00 3.206 3 - 314:28:20 299:57:45 2.02 3 - 16:32:25 312:13:20 1.246 3 - 06:22:35 84:16:10 1.17 3 - 309:16:45 84:15:50 1.846 3 - 55:00:10 122:44:50 0.77 3 - 325:02:55 249:55:45 1.014 3 5 359:30:50 338:07:25 16.674 5 - 306:52:00 262:23:20 1.402 5 - 59:29:30 343:51:30 1.076 5 - 305:08:25 358:34:30 1.274 5 - 315:26:20 90:51:35 1.632 5 - 29:12:45 77:01:35 1.891 5 - 19:55:50 33:02:00 3.071 5 - 348:22:35 31:08:25 3.707 5 - 350:35:20 15:31:25 4.292 5 - 13:29:35 15:31:20 4.202 5 - 12:24:50 30:20:20 7.919 5 6 17:29:05 31:28:50 6.444 6 - 307:24:35 149:47:35 1.738 6 - 344:44:40 149:45:30 1.426 6 - 77:05:35 149:36:05 1.523 6 - 306:05:00 314:12:10 0.84 6 - 353:47:50 94:54:35 2.091 6 - 00:42:00 219:31:40 5.446 6 - 18:33:50 230:03:05 4.468 6 7 12:26:05 241:13:00 4.272 .....etc Anyone got a solution that does not mean I have to convert in a spreadsheet? thanks Andrew
Hi Andrew, if you can get deg,mins,secs to work in survex then you can use the .3d file with the surveys use command. (But I think from your careful wording, you already know this). import use.3d -surveys use Not ideal afaik for “mixing local and global coordinates” so tricky if your going for a kml output if you have to use with mixed .3d and normal .th files. It would be good if you could select a lookup file for the Clino, then you could easily create a translation file in excel and save that as a .th for your total station .th file to lookup to. But no idea if this is feasible or even an idea at all. Al. Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Dec 2020, at 18:15, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
Hello
I thought that there was a way I could stop the out of range error, but I cannot now find it. It would be an a useful command to have as instead of negative readings we got readings between 270 and 359, which although strange is valid. In survex readings over 90 are just a warning, which seems far more sensible, the problem is that I don't think that I can enter the data in survex either without conversion as I don't think that degrees minutes and seconds can be entered.
So I'm stuck with data that I have to convert, for different reasons depending on whether I use survex of therion.
Here is part of the file, I have quiet a few
survey
centreline data normal from to clino compass tape ignoreall 1 2 1:08:25 83:37:40 17.88 2 3 00:00:00 -:-:- 0.055 3 - 02:39:00 266:49:00 3.206 3 - 314:28:20 299:57:45 2.02 3 - 16:32:25 312:13:20 1.246 3 - 06:22:35 84:16:10 1.17 3 - 309:16:45 84:15:50 1.846 3 - 55:00:10 122:44:50 0.77 3 - 325:02:55 249:55:45 1.014 3 5 359:30:50 338:07:25 16.674 5 - 306:52:00 262:23:20 1.402 5 - 59:29:30 343:51:30 1.076 5 - 305:08:25 358:34:30 1.274 5 - 315:26:20 90:51:35 1.632 5 - 29:12:45 77:01:35 1.891 5 - 19:55:50 33:02:00 3.071 5 - 348:22:35 31:08:25 3.707 5 - 350:35:20 15:31:25 4.292 5 - 13:29:35 15:31:20 4.202 5 - 12:24:50 30:20:20 7.919 5 6 17:29:05 31:28:50 6.444 6 - 307:24:35 149:47:35 1.738 6 - 344:44:40 149:45:30 1.426 6 - 77:05:35 149:36:05 1.523 6 - 306:05:00 314:12:10 0.84 6 - 353:47:50 94:54:35 2.091 6 - 00:42:00 219:31:40 5.446 6 - 18:33:50 230:03:05 4.468 6 7 12:26:05 241:13:00 4.272
.....etc
Anyone got a solution that does not mean I have to convert in a spreadsheet?
thanks
Andrew _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cccbda31a118a4d7920f708d89f9316f5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637434801373846851%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=C3FiInOMQihrMsvJa7aW1p%2FMHe83Q%2BZSDsw1NVslcA8%3D&reserved=0
Are you sure those data are “normal”? Martin Odesláno z iPhonu 14. 12. 2020 v 1:10, alastair gott <alastairgott@hotmail.com>:
Hi Andrew, if you can get deg,mins,secs to work in survex then you can use the .3d file with the surveys use command. (But I think from your careful wording, you already know this).
import use.3d -surveys use
Not ideal afaik for “mixing local and global coordinates” so tricky if your going for a kml output if you have to use with mixed .3d and normal .th files.
It would be good if you could select a lookup file for the Clino, then you could easily create a translation file in excel and save that as a .th for your total station .th file to lookup to. But no idea if this is feasible or even an idea at all.
Al.
Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Dec 2020, at 18:15, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
Hello
I thought that there was a way I could stop the out of range error, but I cannot now find it. It would be an a useful command to have as instead of negative readings we got readings between 270 and 359, which although strange is valid. In survex readings over 90 are just a warning, which seems far more sensible, the problem is that I don't think that I can enter the data in survex either without conversion as I don't think that degrees minutes and seconds can be entered.
So I'm stuck with data that I have to convert, for different reasons depending on whether I use survex of therion.
Here is part of the file, I have quiet a few
survey
centreline data normal from to clino compass tape ignoreall 1 2 1:08:25 83:37:40 17.88 2 3 00:00:00 -:-:- 0.055 3 - 02:39:00 266:49:00 3.206 3 - 314:28:20 299:57:45 2.02 3 - 16:32:25 312:13:20 1.246 3 - 06:22:35 84:16:10 1.17 3 - 309:16:45 84:15:50 1.846 3 - 55:00:10 122:44:50 0.77 3 - 325:02:55 249:55:45 1.014 3 5 359:30:50 338:07:25 16.674 5 - 306:52:00 262:23:20 1.402 5 - 59:29:30 343:51:30 1.076 5 - 305:08:25 358:34:30 1.274 5 - 315:26:20 90:51:35 1.632 5 - 29:12:45 77:01:35 1.891 5 - 19:55:50 33:02:00 3.071 5 - 348:22:35 31:08:25 3.707 5 - 350:35:20 15:31:25 4.292 5 - 13:29:35 15:31:20 4.202 5 - 12:24:50 30:20:20 7.919 5 6 17:29:05 31:28:50 6.444 6 - 307:24:35 149:47:35 1.738 6 - 344:44:40 149:45:30 1.426 6 - 77:05:35 149:36:05 1.523 6 - 306:05:00 314:12:10 0.84 6 - 353:47:50 94:54:35 2.091 6 - 00:42:00 219:31:40 5.446 6 - 18:33:50 230:03:05 4.468 6 7 12:26:05 241:13:00 4.272
.....etc
Anyone got a solution that does not mean I have to convert in a spreadsheet?
thanks
Andrew _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cccbda31a118a4d7920f708d89f9316f5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637434801373846851%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=C3FiInOMQihrMsvJa7aW1p%2FMHe83Q%2BZSDsw1NVslcA8%3D&reserved=0
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
We have now used 3 different 'Total stations' all by different manufacturers All seem to give a choice between 270 as down 0 as level and 90 as up or 0 as down 90 as level and 180 as up None of them have given the choice for negative clino (all the machines we have use are old, but digital. So it does seem normal for theodolites! With hindsight I should have chosen the latter,then I could have just calibrated with a calibrate clino 90 But it was difficult to get your head round, plus I was using pockettopo (and sexytopo) to draw the survey in the cave, so it was easier to use the 270 as down version It would be really useful to be able in a centreline-endcentreline nest to be able to suppress the out of range error and use the 270 to 360 readings, but still have the error/warning for the more normal surveys thanks Andrew On 14/12/2020 08:24, Martin Sluka via Therion wrote:
Are you sure those data are “normal”?
Martin
Odesláno z iPhonu
14. 12. 2020 v 1:10, alastair gott <alastairgott@hotmail.com>:
Hi Andrew, if you can get deg,mins,secs to work in survex then you can use the .3d file with the surveys use command. (But I think from your careful wording, you already know this).
import use.3d -surveys use
Not ideal afaik for “mixing local and global coordinates” so tricky if your going for a kml output if you have to use with mixed .3d and normal .th files.
It would be good if you could select a lookup file for the Clino, then you could easily create a translation file in excel and save that as a .th for your total station .th file to lookup to. But no idea if this is feasible or even an idea at all.
Al.
Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Dec 2020, at 18:15, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
Hello
I thought that there was a way I could stop the out of range error, but I cannot now find it. It would be an a useful command to have as instead of negative readings we got readings between 270 and 359, which although strange is valid. In survex readings over 90 are just a warning, which seems far more sensible, the problem is that I don't think that I can enter the data in survex either without conversion as I don't think that degrees minutes and seconds can be entered.
So I'm stuck with data that I have to convert, for different reasons depending on whether I use survex of therion.
Here is part of the file, I have quiet a few
survey
centreline data normal from to clino compass tape ignoreall 1 2 1:08:25 83:37:40 17.88 2 3 00:00:00 -:-:- 0.055 3 - 02:39:00 266:49:00 3.206 3 - 314:28:20 299:57:45 2.02 3 - 16:32:25 312:13:20 1.246 3 - 06:22:35 84:16:10 1.17 3 - 309:16:45 84:15:50 1.846 3 - 55:00:10 122:44:50 0.77 3 - 325:02:55 249:55:45 1.014 3 5 359:30:50 338:07:25 16.674 5 - 306:52:00 262:23:20 1.402 5 - 59:29:30 343:51:30 1.076 5 - 305:08:25 358:34:30 1.274 5 - 315:26:20 90:51:35 1.632 5 - 29:12:45 77:01:35 1.891 5 - 19:55:50 33:02:00 3.071 5 - 348:22:35 31:08:25 3.707 5 - 350:35:20 15:31:25 4.292 5 - 13:29:35 15:31:20 4.202 5 - 12:24:50 30:20:20 7.919 5 6 17:29:05 31:28:50 6.444 6 - 307:24:35 149:47:35 1.738 6 - 344:44:40 149:45:30 1.426 6 - 77:05:35 149:36:05 1.523 6 - 306:05:00 314:12:10 0.84 6 - 353:47:50 94:54:35 2.091 6 - 00:42:00 219:31:40 5.446 6 - 18:33:50 230:03:05 4.468 6 7 12:26:05 241:13:00 4.272
.....etc
Anyone got a solution that does not mean I have to convert in a spreadsheet?
thanks
Andrew _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cccbda31a118a4d7920f708d89f9316f5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637434801373846851%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=C3FiInOMQihrMsvJa7aW1p%2FMHe83Q%2BZSDsw1NVslcA8%3D&reserved=0
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Hello, could you please try the latest commit? I do not think that even a warning for 270 (=-90) to 360 (=level) degrees clino is necessary. An error can occur if you manually type a comma in the wrong place, but the same may happen with compass & tape and there is no warning. S. On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 at 09:43, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
We have now used 3 different 'Total stations' all by different manufacturers
All seem to give a choice between
270 as down 0 as level and 90 as up
or
0 as down 90 as level and 180 as up
None of them have given the choice for negative clino (all the machines we have use are old, but digital.
So it does seem normal for theodolites!
With hindsight I should have chosen the latter,then I could have just calibrated with a calibrate clino 90
But it was difficult to get your head round, plus I was using pockettopo (and sexytopo) to draw the survey in the cave, so it was easier to use the 270 as down version
It would be really useful to be able in a centreline-endcentreline nest to be able to suppress the out of range error and use the 270 to 360 readings, but still have the error/warning for the more normal surveys
thanks
Andrew
On 14/12/2020 08:24, Martin Sluka via Therion wrote:
Are you sure those data are “normal”?
Martin
Odesláno z iPhonu
14. 12. 2020 v 1:10, alastair gott <alastairgott@hotmail.com>:
Hi Andrew, if you can get deg,mins,secs to work in survex then you can use the .3d file with the surveys use command. (But I think from your careful wording, you already know this).
import use.3d -surveys use
Not ideal afaik for “mixing local and global coordinates” so tricky if your going for a kml output if you have to use with mixed .3d and normal .th files.
It would be good if you could select a lookup file for the Clino, then you could easily create a translation file in excel and save that as a .th for your total station .th file to lookup to. But no idea if this is feasible or even an idea at all.
Al.
Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Dec 2020, at 18:15, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
Hello
I thought that there was a way I could stop the out of range error, but I cannot now find it. It would be an a useful command to have as instead of negative readings we got readings between 270 and 359, which although strange is valid. In survex readings over 90 are just a warning, which seems far more sensible, the problem is that I don't think that I can enter the data in survex either without conversion as I don't think that degrees minutes and seconds can be entered.
So I'm stuck with data that I have to convert, for different reasons depending on whether I use survex of therion.
Here is part of the file, I have quiet a few
survey
centreline data normal from to clino compass tape ignoreall 1 2 1:08:25 83:37:40 17.88 2 3 00:00:00 -:-:- 0.055 3 - 02:39:00 266:49:00 3.206 3 - 314:28:20 299:57:45 2.02 3 - 16:32:25 312:13:20 1.246 3 - 06:22:35 84:16:10 1.17 3 - 309:16:45 84:15:50 1.846 3 - 55:00:10 122:44:50 0.77 3 - 325:02:55 249:55:45 1.014 3 5 359:30:50 338:07:25 16.674 5 - 306:52:00 262:23:20 1.402 5 - 59:29:30 343:51:30 1.076 5 - 305:08:25 358:34:30 1.274 5 - 315:26:20 90:51:35 1.632 5 - 29:12:45 77:01:35 1.891 5 - 19:55:50 33:02:00 3.071 5 - 348:22:35 31:08:25 3.707 5 - 350:35:20 15:31:25 4.292 5 - 13:29:35 15:31:20 4.202 5 - 12:24:50 30:20:20 7.919 5 6 17:29:05 31:28:50 6.444 6 - 307:24:35 149:47:35 1.738 6 - 344:44:40 149:45:30 1.426 6 - 77:05:35 149:36:05 1.523 6 - 306:05:00 314:12:10 0.84 6 - 353:47:50 94:54:35 2.091 6 - 00:42:00 219:31:40 5.446 6 - 18:33:50 230:03:05 4.468 6 7 12:26:05 241:13:00 4.272
.....etc
Anyone got a solution that does not mean I have to convert in a spreadsheet?
thanks
Andrew _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk
https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cccbda31a118a4d7920f708d89f9316f5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637434801373846851%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=C3FiInOMQihrMsvJa7aW1p%2FMHe83Q%2BZSDsw1NVslcA8%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Nor Survex, nor Therion support theodolite, as I know. Isn’t better to input such measurements as fix points? Martin Odesláno z iPhonu 14. 12. 2020 v 19:09, Stacho Mudrak <lists@group-s.sk>:
Hello,
could you please try the latest commit? I do not think that even a warning for 270 (=-90) to 360 (=level) degrees clino is necessary. An error can occur if you manually type a comma in the wrong place, but the same may happen with compass & tape and there is no warning.
S.
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 at 09:43, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote: We have now used 3 different 'Total stations' all by different manufacturers
All seem to give a choice between
270 as down 0 as level and 90 as up
or
0 as down 90 as level and 180 as up
None of them have given the choice for negative clino (all the machines we have use are old, but digital.
So it does seem normal for theodolites!
With hindsight I should have chosen the latter,then I could have just calibrated with a calibrate clino 90
But it was difficult to get your head round, plus I was using pockettopo (and sexytopo) to draw the survey in the cave, so it was easier to use the 270 as down version
It would be really useful to be able in a centreline-endcentreline nest to be able to suppress the out of range error and use the 270 to 360 readings, but still have the error/warning for the more normal surveys
thanks
Andrew
On 14/12/2020 08:24, Martin Sluka via Therion wrote:
Are you sure those data are “normal”?
Martin
Odesláno z iPhonu
14. 12. 2020 v 1:10, alastair gott <alastairgott@hotmail.com>:
Hi Andrew, if you can get deg,mins,secs to work in survex then you can use the .3d file with the surveys use command. (But I think from your careful wording, you already know this).
import use.3d -surveys use
Not ideal afaik for “mixing local and global coordinates” so tricky if your going for a kml output if you have to use with mixed .3d and normal .th files.
It would be good if you could select a lookup file for the Clino, then you could easily create a translation file in excel and save that as a .th for your total station .th file to lookup to. But no idea if this is feasible or even an idea at all.
Al.
Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Dec 2020, at 18:15, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
Hello
I thought that there was a way I could stop the out of range error, but I cannot now find it. It would be an a useful command to have as instead of negative readings we got readings between 270 and 359, which although strange is valid. In survex readings over 90 are just a warning, which seems far more sensible, the problem is that I don't think that I can enter the data in survex either without conversion as I don't think that degrees minutes and seconds can be entered.
So I'm stuck with data that I have to convert, for different reasons depending on whether I use survex of therion.
Here is part of the file, I have quiet a few
survey
centreline data normal from to clino compass tape ignoreall 1 2 1:08:25 83:37:40 17.88 2 3 00:00:00 -:-:- 0.055 3 - 02:39:00 266:49:00 3.206 3 - 314:28:20 299:57:45 2.02 3 - 16:32:25 312:13:20 1.246 3 - 06:22:35 84:16:10 1.17 3 - 309:16:45 84:15:50 1.846 3 - 55:00:10 122:44:50 0.77 3 - 325:02:55 249:55:45 1.014 3 5 359:30:50 338:07:25 16.674 5 - 306:52:00 262:23:20 1.402 5 - 59:29:30 343:51:30 1.076 5 - 305:08:25 358:34:30 1.274 5 - 315:26:20 90:51:35 1.632 5 - 29:12:45 77:01:35 1.891 5 - 19:55:50 33:02:00 3.071 5 - 348:22:35 31:08:25 3.707 5 - 350:35:20 15:31:25 4.292 5 - 13:29:35 15:31:20 4.202 5 - 12:24:50 30:20:20 7.919 5 6 17:29:05 31:28:50 6.444 6 - 307:24:35 149:47:35 1.738 6 - 344:44:40 149:45:30 1.426 6 - 77:05:35 149:36:05 1.523 6 - 306:05:00 314:12:10 0.84 6 - 353:47:50 94:54:35 2.091 6 - 00:42:00 219:31:40 5.446 6 - 18:33:50 230:03:05 4.468 6 7 12:26:05 241:13:00 4.272
.....etc
Anyone got a solution that does not mean I have to convert in a spreadsheet?
thanks
Andrew _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cccbda31a118a4d7920f708d89f9316f5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637434801373846851%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=C3FiInOMQihrMsvJa7aW1p%2FMHe83Q%2BZSDsw1NVslcA8%3D&reserved=0
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Those fixed positions would need to be calculated, by something. Errors do occur which are better distributed about the loops. Most none surveying software doesn't really do this. There is a data type that is for theodolite, however it is for a data type where all distances are horizontal, which appears to be for really old theodolites. Theodolites are not really set up for doing traverses, for a loop of a few hundred metres we have an mis-closure of about 1m. I would be disappointed if I was using a disto X. It seems to be par for the course. The show cave owners paid for a traverse when they where tunnelling. They claimed millimetre accuracy however were metres out. Lead to a bit of an arguement between the caver surveyors and the paid surveyors about Which direction to dig the tunnel. It was resolved when the tunnel broke through. Luckily the tunnelers listen to the cavers. 😁 Andrew On 14 December 2020 18:47:11 GMT, Martin Sluka via Therion <therion@speleo.sk> wrote:
Nor Survex, nor Therion support theodolite, as I know. Isn’t better to input such measurements as fix points?
Martin
Odesláno z iPhonu
14. 12. 2020 v 19:09, Stacho Mudrak <lists@group-s.sk>:
Hello,
could you please try the latest commit? I do not think that even a warning for 270 (=-90) to 360 (=level) degrees clino is necessary. An error can occur if you manually type a comma in the wrong place, but the same may happen with compass & tape and there is no warning.
S.
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 at 09:43, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote: We have now used 3 different 'Total stations' all by different manufacturers
All seem to give a choice between
270 as down 0 as level and 90 as up
or
0 as down 90 as level and 180 as up
None of them have given the choice for negative clino (all the machines we have use are old, but digital.
So it does seem normal for theodolites!
With hindsight I should have chosen the latter,then I could have just calibrated with a calibrate clino 90
But it was difficult to get your head round, plus I was using pockettopo (and sexytopo) to draw the survey in the cave, so it was easier to use the 270 as down version
It would be really useful to be able in a centreline-endcentreline nest to be able to suppress the out of range error and use the 270 to 360 readings, but still have the error/warning for the more normal surveys
thanks
Andrew
On 14/12/2020 08:24, Martin Sluka via Therion wrote:
Are you sure those data are “normal”?
Martin
Odesláno z iPhonu
14. 12. 2020 v 1:10, alastair gott <alastairgott@hotmail.com>:
Hi Andrew, if you can get deg,mins,secs to work in survex then you can use the .3d file with the surveys use command. (But I think from your careful wording, you already know this).
import use.3d -surveys use
Not ideal afaik for “mixing local and global coordinates” so tricky if your going for a kml output if you have to use with mixed .3d and normal .th files.
It would be good if you could select a lookup file for the Clino, then you could easily create a translation file in excel and save that as a .th for your total station .th file to lookup to. But no idea if this is feasible or even an idea at all.
Al.
Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Dec 2020, at 18:15, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
Hello
I thought that there was a way I could stop the out of range error, but I cannot now find it. It would be an a useful command to have as instead of negative readings we got readings between 270 and 359, which although strange is valid. In survex readings over 90 are just a warning, which seems far more sensible, the problem is that I don't think that I can enter the data in survex either without conversion as I don't think that degrees minutes and seconds can be entered.
So I'm stuck with data that I have to convert, for different reasons depending on whether I use survex of therion.
Here is part of the file, I have quiet a few
survey
centreline data normal from to clino compass tape ignoreall 1 2 1:08:25 83:37:40 17.88 2 3 00:00:00 -:-:- 0.055 3 - 02:39:00 266:49:00 3.206 3 - 314:28:20 299:57:45 2.02 3 - 16:32:25 312:13:20 1.246 3 - 06:22:35 84:16:10 1.17 3 - 309:16:45 84:15:50 1.846 3 - 55:00:10 122:44:50 0.77 3 - 325:02:55 249:55:45 1.014 3 5 359:30:50 338:07:25 16.674 5 - 306:52:00 262:23:20 1.402 5 - 59:29:30 343:51:30 1.076 5 - 305:08:25 358:34:30 1.274 5 - 315:26:20 90:51:35 1.632 5 - 29:12:45 77:01:35 1.891 5 - 19:55:50 33:02:00 3.071 5 - 348:22:35 31:08:25 3.707 5 - 350:35:20 15:31:25 4.292 5 - 13:29:35 15:31:20 4.202 5 - 12:24:50 30:20:20 7.919 5 6 17:29:05 31:28:50 6.444 6 - 307:24:35 149:47:35 1.738 6 - 344:44:40 149:45:30 1.426 6 - 77:05:35 149:36:05 1.523 6 - 306:05:00 314:12:10 0.84 6 - 353:47:50 94:54:35 2.091 6 - 00:42:00 219:31:40 5.446 6 - 18:33:50 230:03:05 4.468 6 7 12:26:05 241:13:00 4.272
.....etc
Anyone got a solution that does not mean I have to convert in a spreadsheet?
thanks
Andrew _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk
https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cccbda31a118a4d7920f708d89f9316f5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637434801373846851%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=C3FiInOMQihrMsvJa7aW1p%2FMHe83Q%2BZSDsw1NVslcA8%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Andrew --
On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 8:51 PM Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
Those fixed positions would need to be calculated, by something. Errors do occur which are better distributed about the loops. Most none surveying software doesn't really do this.
Check https://www.gnu.org/software/gama/ BTW, how did you get the azimuth (compass column in the data you sent) from the theodolite data? Martin
On 14 December 2020 20:03:00 GMT, Martin Budaj <m.budaj@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 8:51 PM Andrew
Check https://www.gnu.org/software/gama/
BTW, how did you get the azimuth (compass column in the data you sent) from the theodolite data?
We set up a leg some distance outside the cave using gps. Then every time the target is swapped with the main unit, you have to align it with the back leg. It is a tedious process, but lets splays be recorded easily. The paid surveyors tried triangulation down the tunnel, but there is not really enough room, further round the loop it gets to one person wide with metal everywhere. In places where we haven't been able to get GPS we have used a distox to set up the leg Andrew --
Theodolites are not really set up for doing traverses, for a loop of a few hundred metres we have an mis-closure of about 1m. I would be disappointed if I was using a disto X. It seems to be par for the course. The show cave owners paid for a traverse when they where tunnelling. They claimed millimetre accuracy however were metres out. Lead to a bit of an arguement between the caver surveyors and the paid surveyors about Which direction to dig the tunnel. It was resolved when the tunnel broke through. Luckily the tunnelers listen to the cavers. 😁
Well, that saves me buying one (as if I could afford one). I was expecting them to be super-accurate, if calibrated properly. I'm assuming this is not a calibration issue though. Theodolite grades were always given as being so much higher than regular surveys, so this is quite eye-opening. Presumably the existing "theodolite" mode you were referring to in Survex/Therion is designed for use with separate positioning and levelling, since levelling gives extremely high accuracy vertical position, so all you need then is the horizontal. (This is similar to how OS land surveys were traditionally done, with the horizontal and vertical surveys being almost entirely unrelated, and only tied in a few places for convenience.) I will add a note that yes, out-of-range crazy numbers is actually normal with theodolite-style devices. Not just for inclination. Certainly there are some other surveys done with thodolites (both professional and home-made) where the compass bearing is over 360, with full wrap-around. One other things I just learned from this thread; degrees:minutes:seconds is a supported format. Cute. Useful for optical theodolites which are actually accurate enough to measure in such tiny increments. Never seen it in a cave survey before.
That’s an interesting anecdote, thanks Andrew. Conversely I had a surveyor complete a traverse around my house, a distance of about 60m from about 6 legs, with a loop closure error of 3mm. He was reasonably pleased with that! Also, mines are surveyed very accurately, eg consider the precision drilling described in the book Bad Ground by Tony Wright. So it would be interesting to understand why the Wookey Hole survey was so bad! I picked up an optical Theodolite from eBay for about £100. It’s a beautiful instrument, and I am interested in using it underground in the right setting. So it would be useful to be able to incorporate Theodolite angular measurements into the Therion or Survex network with appropriately small standard deviations, notwithstanding Andrew’s observation in Wookey, but they would have to be treated differently to magnetic bearings. Can anyone suggest the mathematical approach for doing that? Apologies that’s very lazy of me to ask! I did consider using an approach similar to Andrew’s, ie to calibrate the Theodolite against a magnetic leg, but intuitively that seems to tie the measurement to the inaccuracy of a single leg losing the benefit of error reduction across multiple measurements of the magnetic field (which is what happens in a magnetic traverse). It feels that somehow we need to use both techniques at the same time, using the Theodolite to “lock” the angle between legs while using the compass to align the survey to North. Andrew you might be able to see it more clearly than me, am I missing something? Sent from my iPhone
On 14 Dec 2020, at 20:38, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion <therion@speleo.sk> wrote:
Theodolites are not really set up for doing traverses, for a loop of a few hundred metres we have an mis-closure of about 1m. I would be disappointed if I was using a disto X. It seems to be par for the course. The show cave owners paid for a traverse when they where tunnelling. They claimed millimetre accuracy however were metres out. Lead to a bit of an arguement between the caver surveyors and the paid surveyors about Which direction to dig the tunnel. It was resolved when the tunnel broke through. Luckily the tunnelers listen to the cavers. 😁
Well, that saves me buying one (as if I could afford one). I was expecting them to be super-accurate, if calibrated properly. I'm assuming this is not a calibration issue though. Theodolite grades were always given as being so much higher than regular surveys, so this is quite eye-opening.
Presumably the existing "theodolite" mode you were referring to in Survex/Therion is designed for use with separate positioning and levelling, since levelling gives extremely high accuracy vertical position, so all you need then is the horizontal. (This is similar to how OS land surveys were traditionally done, with the horizontal and vertical surveys being almost entirely unrelated, and only tied in a few places for convenience.)
I will add a note that yes, out-of-range crazy numbers is actually normal with theodolite-style devices. Not just for inclination. Certainly there are some other surveys done with thodolites (both professional and home-made) where the compass bearing is over 360, with full wrap-around.
One other things I just learned from this thread; degrees:minutes:seconds is a supported format. Cute. Useful for optical theodolites which are actually accurate enough to measure in such tiny increments. Never seen it in a cave survey before. _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Hi,
Theodolites are not really set up for doing traverses, for a loop of a few hundred metres we have an mis-closure of about 1m.
Yes, theodolites are not really suitable for long traverses where the angular errors accumulate. When using them it's essential to eliminate all sources of error, most importantly errors in the instrument position (this requires forced centering of the instruments, see e.g. https://books.google.com/books?id=jPVxSDzVRP0C&pg=PA80&dq="centering,+forced"). Also it is essential to make traverse legs as long as possible when using theodolite. Here is a comparison (taken from a surveying textbook by Ryšavý, 1949) of an error Δ in position of the last point on a traverse of length D, with an average leg length S, and with a mean angle error α for theodolite and β for compass (in radians): Δ_theod ≃ ±α√(D³/(3S)) Δ_compass ≃ ±β√(D·S) Which gives for e.g. D = 500 m, S = 10 m, α = ±20′′, β = ±3′ Δ_theod ≃ ±20 cm Δ_compass ≃ ±6 cm It's easy to check the formulas whether you should expect better results using a theodolite or a compass depending on the length of traverse legs and the precision of your instruments. That’s an interesting anecdote, thanks Andrew. Conversely I had a surveyor
complete a traverse around my house, a distance of about 60m from about 6 legs, with a loop closure error of 3mm.
In our case we got a 3.4 cm error on a 95 m loop with 9 legs in a cave.
So it would be useful to be able to incorporate Theodolite angular measurements into the Therion or Survex network with appropriately small standard deviations, notwithstanding Andrew’s observation in Wookey, but they would have to be treated differently to magnetic bearings. Can anyone suggest the mathematical approach for doing that? Apologies that’s very lazy of me to ask!
Indeed, they should be treated very differently and something like https://www.gnu.org/software/gama/ should be integrated to do it properly :( I did consider using an approach similar to Andrew’s, ie to calibrate the
Theodolite against a magnetic leg, but intuitively that seems to tie the measurement to the inaccuracy of a single leg losing the benefit of error reduction across multiple measurements of the magnetic field (which is what happens in a magnetic traverse). It feels that somehow we need to use both techniques at the same time, using the Theodolite to “lock” the angle between legs while using the compass to align the survey to North.
You can use a gyrotheodolite to combine both approaches :) When using theodolite, always use multiple directions for orienting the survey (shots to multiple distant points with known coordinates, the more distant the better). I would hesitate to use magnetic legs for this purpose (there is much uncertainty with the declination as the models are not particularly precise, there is a daily variation of declination (up to 0.2 degrees!) and there might be local magnetic anomalies). Martin
On 19/12/2020 11:40, Martin Budaj wrote:
Here is a comparison (taken from a surveying textbook by Ryšavý, 1949) of an error Δ in position of the last point on a traverse of length D, with an average leg length S, and with a mean angle error α for theodolite and β for compass (in radians):
That is interesting, in a narrow cave passage which winds lots, plus the need to accommodate the theodalite, the choice of shot length is very limited, we did have a section with lots of short legs, plus real difficulty with the set up, so I suspect that is where the error occurred. That said on a previous show cave we also got a poor loop closure and that was long legs. A third cave where we had a loop we got a brilliant result, 2mm for a traverse of 120m (the first cave we did, so beginners luck!.) The machine is borrowed, from a company that uses it for large civil engineering projects so it should be properly calibrated, the operator is the person borrowing it after he had used it in his day job, so he is very competent. There are so many places where a slight error can occur, especially if the loop is not competed in a single session, but it is the best we can do.
When using theodolite, always use multiple directions for orienting the survey (shots to multiple distant points with known coordinates, the more distant the better). I would hesitate to use magnetic legs for this purpose (there is much uncertainty with the declination as the models are not particularly precise, there is a daily variation of declination (up to 0.2 degrees!) and there might be local magnetic anomalies).
In this case the cave comes out in a valley with little gps signal, the position and orientation was set from the 2 gps positions we could get, the a traverse to the cave. So I have very little idea how that ties in with the declination model. I have been assuming that the direction it gave where OS grid as that is the format of the positions, I have no way to check this. I have set the declination to 0 to stop date and position correction. I think this it right, but advice welcome. thanks Andrew
On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 1:07 PM Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
I would hesitate to use magnetic legs for this purpose (there is much uncertainty with the declination as the models are not particularly precise, there is a daily variation of declination (up to 0.2 degrees!) and there might be local magnetic anomalies).
In this case the cave comes out in a valley with little gps signal, the position and orientation was set from the 2 gps positions we could get, the a traverse to the cave. So I have very little idea how that ties in with the declination model. I have been assuming that the direction it gave where OS grid as that is the format of the positions, I have no way to check this. I have set the declination to 0 to stop date and position correction. I think this it right, but advice welcome.
Ah, that was a reaction to some previous remarks in the discussion:
In places where we haven't been able to get GPS we have used a distox to set up the leg
and
I did consider using an approach similar to Andrew’s, ie to calibrate the Theodolite against a magnetic leg ...
Martin
On 19/12/2020 12:19, Martin Budaj wrote:
Ah, that was a reaction to some previous remarks in the discussion:
In places where we haven't been able to get GPS we have used a distox to set up the leg
and
I did consider using an approach similar to Andrew’s, ie to calibrate the Theodolite against a magnetic leg ...
Yes, one cave we did have to use magnetic calibration. I'm not sure how else we could have done it. Are there alternatives if you are underground. We might have been able to do a traverse all the way from the surface, however, they was one point which we may not have been able to get the theodolite survey through. You mentioned the variation of the magnetic field. One trip I had an alert on my return, on checking how the field had varied while we were underground we abandoned the data, luckily the diagrams where all there so it was not that difficult resurvey. I find this page very useful, http://geomag.bgs.ac.uk/data_service/space_weather/current_conditions.html It lets you set up an alert which I guess is good for the world and if the field is varying in the UK it is likely to be varying world wide? I have no real knowledge of this. Andrew
Thanks, will do as soon as I can. Wasn't expecting ting such s fast response so converted the data, which, it turns out is not simple Andrew On 14 December 2020 18:09:30 GMT, Stacho Mudrak <lists@group-s.sk> wrote:
Hello,
could you please try the latest commit? I do not think that even a warning for 270 (=-90) to 360 (=level) degrees clino is necessary. An error can occur if you manually type a comma in the wrong place, but the same may happen with compass & tape and there is no warning.
S.
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 at 09:43, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
We have now used 3 different 'Total stations' all by different manufacturers
All seem to give a choice between
270 as down 0 as level and 90 as up
or
0 as down 90 as level and 180 as up
None of them have given the choice for negative clino (all the machines we have use are old, but digital.
So it does seem normal for theodolites!
With hindsight I should have chosen the latter,then I could have just calibrated with a calibrate clino 90
But it was difficult to get your head round, plus I was using pockettopo (and sexytopo) to draw the survey in the cave, so it was easier to use the 270 as down version
It would be really useful to be able in a centreline-endcentreline nest to be able to suppress the out of range error and use the 270 to 360 readings, but still have the error/warning for the more normal surveys
thanks
Andrew
On 14/12/2020 08:24, Martin Sluka via Therion wrote:
Are you sure those data are “normal”?
Martin
Odesláno z iPhonu
14. 12. 2020 v 1:10, alastair gott <alastairgott@hotmail.com>:
Hi Andrew, if you can get deg,mins,secs to work in survex then you can use the .3d file with the surveys use command. (But I think from your careful wording, you already know this).
import use.3d -surveys use
Not ideal afaik for “mixing local and global coordinates” so tricky if your going for a kml output if you have to use with mixed .3d and normal .th files.
It would be good if you could select a lookup file for the Clino, then you could easily create a translation file in excel and save that as a .th for your total station .th file to lookup to. But no idea if this is feasible or even an idea at all.
Al.
Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Dec 2020, at 18:15, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
Hello
I thought that there was a way I could stop the out of range error, but I cannot now find it. It would be an a useful command to have as instead of negative readings we got readings between 270 and 359, which although strange is valid. In survex readings over 90 are just a warning, which seems far more sensible, the problem is that I don't think that I can enter the data in survex either without conversion as I don't think that degrees minutes and seconds can be entered.
So I'm stuck with data that I have to convert, for different reasons depending on whether I use survex of therion.
Here is part of the file, I have quiet a few
survey
centreline data normal from to clino compass tape ignoreall 1 2 1:08:25 83:37:40 17.88 2 3 00:00:00 -:-:- 0.055 3 - 02:39:00 266:49:00 3.206 3 - 314:28:20 299:57:45 2.02 3 - 16:32:25 312:13:20 1.246 3 - 06:22:35 84:16:10 1.17 3 - 309:16:45 84:15:50 1.846 3 - 55:00:10 122:44:50 0.77 3 - 325:02:55 249:55:45 1.014 3 5 359:30:50 338:07:25 16.674 5 - 306:52:00 262:23:20 1.402 5 - 59:29:30 343:51:30 1.076 5 - 305:08:25 358:34:30 1.274 5 - 315:26:20 90:51:35 1.632 5 - 29:12:45 77:01:35 1.891 5 - 19:55:50 33:02:00 3.071 5 - 348:22:35 31:08:25 3.707 5 - 350:35:20 15:31:25 4.292 5 - 13:29:35 15:31:20 4.202 5 - 12:24:50 30:20:20 7.919 5 6 17:29:05 31:28:50 6.444 6 - 307:24:35 149:47:35 1.738 6 - 344:44:40 149:45:30 1.426 6 - 77:05:35 149:36:05 1.523 6 - 306:05:00 314:12:10 0.84 6 - 353:47:50 94:54:35 2.091 6 - 00:42:00 219:31:40 5.446 6 - 18:33:50 230:03:05 4.468 6 7 12:26:05 241:13:00 4.272
.....etc
Anyone got a solution that does not mean I have to convert in a spreadsheet?
thanks
Andrew _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Andrew --
participants (7)
-
alastair gott -
Andrew Atkinson -
Ben Cooper -
Martin Budaj -
Martin Sluka -
Stacho Mudrak -
Tarquin Wilton-Jones