Hello everyone - I seem to be missing something. I have made this work in the past, but now it seems that Therion is totally ignoring my instructions. Argh! I have a part of the cave where a stream flow under a tourist trail overlook. The original sketches were done on two different occasions, and I have drawn them as separate scraps. When I set up the map in the .th file, I created a map for "MainPassages" and another for "LowerStream". These are then collected into a single map. The LowerStream map has options "[0 0] below". However, the compiled map always shows it ABOVE. I tried adding a "break" between the two maps. I tried adding units to the [0 0], and I tried changing the offset from [0 0] to [20 20]. None of these made any visible difference in the compiled map. I tried removing the "join" that connects the lower stream to the main passage, but all that did was make for a sloppy join. The lower stream was still above the overlook area. I have other caves where I have done this, and it worked. What am I missing? Attached is the .th file I am using. Thanks! -- Bill Gee
Hm... maybe changing the sequence of the two maps !? Torsten
Am 26.07.2019 um 17:07 schrieb Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net>:
Hello everyone -
I seem to be missing something. I have made this work in the past, but now it seems that Therion is totally ignoring my instructions. Argh!
I have a part of the cave where a stream flow under a tourist trail overlook. The original sketches were done on two different occasions, and I have drawn them as separate scraps.
When I set up the map in the .th file, I created a map for "MainPassages" and another for "LowerStream". These are then collected into a single map. The LowerStream map has options "[0 0] below". However, the compiled map always shows it ABOVE.
I tried adding a "break" between the two maps. I tried adding units to the [0 0], and I tried changing the offset from [0 0] to [20 20]. None of these made any visible difference in the compiled map. I tried removing the "join" that connects the lower stream to the main passage, but all that did was make for a sloppy join. The lower stream was still above the overlook area.
I have other caves where I have done this, and it worked. What am I missing?
Attached is the .th file I am using.
Thanks!
-- Bill Gee
<StarkCaverns.th> _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Hi Bill,
When I set up the map in the .th file, I created a map for "MainPassages" and another for "LowerStream".
You don't normally need to do this. You can just put the two scraps into the same map like this: map outermap mainpassagesscrap break lowerstreamscrap endmap This will display the lower stream's scrap below the main passages scrap. Or if you want to keep your two maps, then this should work: map outermap MainPassages break LowerStream endmap Make sure your .thconfig file has: select outermap@surveyname I think this is the most likely cause of your problem - if you don't select the right map, Therion will select all of the scraps, without any control over stacking order.
"[0 0] below"
This is something very different, and not related to stacking order. It is used to offset a map from its natural position, and leave a shadow "below" the other maps where it would normally have been. "0 0" would not offset it at all, so you are asking Therion to draw the map in its natural position, and leave a shadow ... also in its natural position ... below the map. Probably not what you were looking for :) Hope this is useful. Tarquin
Hi Tarquin - The "select" statement in the thconfig file turned out to be the answer. I have never used that before, so I don't understand why my other maps with overlying passage have worked. However, it took care of this situation. In this case I need to map a map of the lower level because it will contain far more than one scrap. Right now there is only 50 feet or so of the stream mapped, but eventually it will be hundreds of feet, and it will weave back and forth under the main passage. Just to make life even more complicated, there is an upper level passage that will get stacked in here too! When we get done there will be at least three levels. Thanks! -- Bill Gee On Friday, July 26, 2019 11:46:44 AM CDT Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion wrote:
Hi Bill,
When I set up the map in the .th file, I created a map for "MainPassages" and another for "LowerStream".
You don't normally need to do this. You can just put the two scraps into the same map like this:
map outermap mainpassagesscrap break lowerstreamscrap endmap
This will display the lower stream's scrap below the main passages scrap. Or if you want to keep your two maps, then this should work:
map outermap MainPassages break LowerStream endmap
Make sure your .thconfig file has:
select outermap@surveyname
I think this is the most likely cause of your problem - if you don't select the right map, Therion will select all of the scraps, without any control over stacking order.
"[0 0] below"
This is something very different, and not related to stacking order. It is used to offset a map from its natural position, and leave a shadow "below" the other maps where it would normally have been. "0 0" would not offset it at all, so you are asking Therion to draw the map in its natural position, and leave a shadow ... also in its natural position ... below the map.
Probably not what you were looking for :)
Hope this is useful.
Tarquin _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
The "select" statement in the thconfig file turned out to be the answer. I have never used that before, so I don't understand why my other maps with overlying passage have worked.
Because when you don't select a map, Therion selects *all* scraps that match the current projection, and draws all of them, using the "average height" of the scraps to determine stacking order. That often works well, but there are some cases where it doesn't. See the previous thread on this mailing list titled "Sorting scraps/maps by height in default mode". https://www.mail-archive.com/therion@speleo.sk/msg07536.html
In this case I need to map a map of the lower level because it will contain far more than one scrap.
Yep, there's multiple ways that will work, and you choose what works for you. You could have a single map, put all the scrap references for the top layer, then "break" then all the scraps in the next layer, and so on. Or you can use nested maps to organise it. Personally, I have at least two maps per survey trip+area (plan, and elevation), each of which contains multiple scraps. Then for each parent survey (eg. one region of the cave at a time, or one cave), I have the same, collecting together the child maps. When doing offsets, I have a separate map for each "part" (offset or not), and a map to apply the offsets - again mirrored into the parent surveys. So yeah, maps are used quite heavily. But they are not essential for layering.
Break will not work in map definition from maps. Only sequence of particular maps works.
OK, now how come I didn't know that?! Whenever I make maps, I have been putting "break" in there, and it has happened to work because I will always put them in the right order anyway. It doesn't show any error message, and just silently ignores them. (It doesn't hurt to have it there, if only just to help mental understanding of the layers.) But even the Therion book does it - see the "displaying overlaying maps in offset" section. When defining "break" it doesn't say that it applies only to scraps and not maps. And when defining "map" syntax, it actually shows you putting a map reference, then "break" then another map reference. This should really be stated very explicitly, since it is not at all consistent with what the book shows. Are you sure it's not a bug? I was told previously that maps represent their scraps, so a map that references two maps could just be thought of as the combined list of scraps (and breaks) within them. But as you said, it seems to implicitly add a "break" at the end of each child map. Could someone authoritatively state the intended behaviour here, because either a bug needs to be fixed, or the documentation needs to be updated to match the implementation. I will happily file the required bug report accordingly. Cheers :) Tarquin
Break will not work in map definition from maps. Only sequence of particular maps works.
OK, now how come I didn't know that?!
Whenever I make maps, I have been putting "break" in there, and it has happened to work because I will always put them in the right order anyway. It doesn't show any error message, and just silently ignores them. (It doesn't hurt to have it there, if only just to help mental understanding of the layers.)
But even the Therion book does it - see the "displaying overlaying maps in offset" section. When defining "break" it doesn't say that it applies only to scraps and not maps. And when defining "map" syntax, it actually shows you putting a map reference, then "break" then another map reference.
This should really be stated very explicitly, since it is not at all consistent with what the book shows. Are you sure it's not a bug?
I was told previously that maps represent their scraps, so a map that references two maps could just be thought of as the combined list of scraps (and breaks) within them. But as you said, it seems to implicitly add a "break" at the end of each child map.
Could someone authoritatively state the intended behaviour here, because either a bug needs to be fixed, or the documentation needs to be updated to match the implementation. I will happily file the required bug report accordingly.
Cheers :)
Tarquin
_______________________________________________ Hi Tarquin Don't worry, it took me 12 years to discover that break was completely ineffective for maps that contain maps! Last month Stacho announced a new 'maps [on]off' feature https://www.mail-archive.com/therion@speleo.sk/msg07571.html It adds some more reporting to the therion.log, that includes map definitions and elevations. Is quite informative, but as yet quite buggy, or else it is showing up some hither to unnoticed problem with my datasets. Current issues include altitudes reported as an overflow value if a scrap is empty, and if a map is defined from maps or includes a map defined from a survey centreline. Also ‘maps off’ takes 4x longer to compile and produces pdfs 15x larger. Is a problem as ‘maps off’ is a nice way to disable offsets and cross-sections for overview maps. I mention ‘maps’ as it is indirectly related to ‘break’. It provides useful insights, and warrants a wiki article once its behaviour settles down. I'm certainly not authoritative, but I think the ‘break’ behaviour is, and is intended to be, as follows; • Breaks are required for maps defined from scraps if you want one set of scraps to render over another. • Breaks are not required for maps defined from maps (as there is an automatic break inferred by Therion between every map in the definition). • However a break placed in a map defined from maps will not cause any error. It is perhaps useful for the map author to use a break to clarify how main levels of cave are subdivided. • Items at the top of a map definition list are taken to be the highest level passages, and render over top of items below, regardless of their average elevation based on centreline stations. The 10 June commit on Github appears to correct some of the issues in the Therion Book that you mention, but for some reason they don’t seem to have turned up in the latest version that I downloaded. The issue is with the documentation I think. Bruce
29. 7. 2019 v 9:56, Bruce Mutton <bruce@tomo.co.nz>:
Is a problem as ‘maps off’ is a nice way to disable offsets and cross-sections for overview maps.
#hide sections symbol-hide point section #cross section locations symbol-hide line section #cross section cutting planes doesn’t work? Martin
Apologies. That is the best way to deal with sections. Bruce -------- Original message --------From: Martin Sluka via Therion <therion@speleo.sk> Date: 29/07/19 20:20 (GMT+12:00) To: List for Therion users <therion@speleo.sk> Cc: Martin Sluka <martinsluka@mac.com> Subject: Re: [Therion] Placing part of a map below another 29. 7. 2019 v 9:56, Bruce Mutton <bruce@tomo.co.nz>:Is a problem as ‘maps off’ is a nice way to disable offsets and cross-sections for overview maps. #hide sections symbol-hide point section #cross section locations symbol-hide line section #cross section cutting planes doesn’t work?Martin
The 10 June commit on Github appears to correct some of the issues in the Therion Book that you mention, but for some reason they don’t seem to have turned up in the latest version that I downloaded. The issue is with the documentation I think.
OK, I'll go with that. Posted here: https://github.com/therion/therion/issues/146 It can be resolved it if there is something already in the pipeline for correcting it. Thanks for the confirmation :) Tarquin
Break will not work in map definition from maps. Only sequence of particular maps works. Martin Odesláno z iPhonu 26. 7. 2019 v 18:46, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion <therion@speleo.sk>:
Hi Bill,
When I set up the map in the .th file, I created a map for "MainPassages" and another for "LowerStream".
You don't normally need to do this. You can just put the two scraps into the same map like this:
map outermap mainpassagesscrap break lowerstreamscrap endmap
This will display the lower stream's scrap below the main passages scrap. Or if you want to keep your two maps, then this should work:
map outermap MainPassages break LowerStream endmap
Make sure your .thconfig file has:
select outermap@surveyname
I think this is the most likely cause of your problem - if you don't select the right map, Therion will select all of the scraps, without any control over stacking order.
"[0 0] below"
This is something very different, and not related to stacking order. It is used to offset a map from its natural position, and leave a shadow "below" the other maps where it would normally have been. "0 0" would not offset it at all, so you are asking Therion to draw the map in its natural position, and leave a shadow ... also in its natural position ... below the map.
Probably not what you were looking for :)
Hope this is useful.
Tarquin _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
participants (5)
-
Bill Gee -
Bruce Mutton -
Martin Sluka -
Tarquin Wilton-Jones -
Torsten Schnitter