Am Freitag, 6. Mai 2016, 08:11:21 schrieb Martin Sluka: Dear Martin, dear Bruce,

any „beginner’s“ question to Therion’s mailing list is OK, because we are looking to try to solve as much as possible problems and ideas which cavers have about documentation of caves.

[Bruce:] I think it is better to ask such questions on the forum. That way everyone else gets to ponder how well they really know therion, and to learn possibly unexpected ways of solving problems. And maybe insight as to how to improve the documentation.

thank you both; then I will ask lots of stupid questions :-)

You may not use symbols without definition of scraps - small parts of maps. But you may define a scrap (several stations long only) and use only point symbols for stations and let’s say symbol for entrance. Then the other one scrap and the next scrap…

You should only define map then:

map polygon_only.map -projection plan scrap1 scrap2 scrap3 … endmap

I think I understand now. I tried to work in this route, then, is this a correct work-flow? (Tried after therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/drawingchecklist) I: - opened the therion project file (bergwerk.thconfig), - went to "Map editor", - 'new'-file symbol, - went to "Background image" --> xvi-File of polygon (centreline) drawing - the file commands ("Dateibefehle"), insert scrap ("Skizze einfügen") - Pointsymbol - insert point--> type "entrance" - Saved as "bergwerk.th2". Then in the highest level th-file (bergwerk.th): (survey bergwerk -title "Bergwerk 1" ... lots of input, equate ...) input bergwerk.th2 map polygon_only.map -projection plan scrap1 endmap endsurvey Then, after a lot of fiddling I realized there needs to be a map hierarchy also, so I set after 'endsurvey': map total-map polygon_only.map@bergwerk bergwerk endmap ... and modified the th-file as such: source bergwerk.th select total-map layout bergwerk_export language de units metric [etc. pp. ff.] endlayout select polygon_only.map@bergwerk export map -projection plan -o bergwerk.xvi export map -projection plan -layout bergwerk_export -layout-color map-fg 60 -output Bergwerk.pdf -fmt pdf In the compiler compartment the little window on the right "Planstruktur" (map structure) shows: [Folder symbol] Plan | |-[Double sheet symbol] total-map | |----[Single sheet symbol] polygon-only.map ... which seems correct to me, and it compiles without error. But now I get an exported pdf like that: Before: --------- | poly | | gon | | draw | --------- Now: |-------| | scrap | | entr. | --------- | poly | | gon | | draw | --------- (I hope you see what O meant to draw:). But I see the entrance symbol now! So I fear I missed something to tell Therion to layer this correctly instead of first the scrap, then on paper below the polygopn draw. I think it has something to do with 'joining scraps', http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/tips, but how do I join only one scrap to the polygon draw? Or is it simply a nesting problem, and I nested wrong somewhere? Do I need to use the 'join' command in the th file, somthing like 'join scrap1 0@Bergwerk=1'? Do I simply need at least one lineor such in the scrap, and a single point is not enough? Tried to fiddle with that, but to no avail so far. Thanks again, an best regards, Christian

according to http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/exportselectionformat this happens as centreline (polygon draws) and map drawings are fundamentally different, if I understand this correctly; is it possible there is no way to export them 'layered', I mean the map-scraps translucent over the centerline? I would like in some circumstances to have it printed within the resulting mine plan.

This is easily done. You need to define a map with just scraps and define a separate map with just centreline(s). Then select both of those maps for export (or combine those two maps, and select the combination map for export). I see the table on that wiki page is a bit confusing and contains an error on the map - map - centrelines line. I will try to fix.

Another question: I am putting line points over the background image centerline 'wings' (l+r). Is there, perhaps, a function I do not know of which sets the line-points automatically over the centerline left- and right-wings?

No, you have to draw the walls manually for pdf output (although Loch will display the LRUD as smooth walls). Bruce

Am Samstag, 7. Mai 2016, 08:13:39 schrieb Martin Sluka:

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6. 5. 2016 v 22:55, Bruce <bruce@tomo.co.nz>: No, you have to draw the walls manually for pdf output Anyway you may export .xvi file first and use it as background so you’ll see the LR distances. And for map you don’t use curves for walls, you may use straight lines only with points in LR.

This I have done, and what I first thought as a bit of an inconvenience I have now learned to notice as a better way: I exported the xvi-file as background, as you said, and set straight line points. Then I used the "convert to curve" function and manipulated these little extending lines with squares (sorry, do not know how they are being called) until the now curved line fitted my expectation, and inserted (seldom) points a-new where necessary, so I could realign the adit walls according to my memory and photos. Now I will apply this knowledge to some other surveys we made. I am very pleased with the output, and now I will learn how to define a centreline as part of a map output as Bruce hinted (if needed at all, my co-explorers did not deem it necessary). By the way I think some of the other people here will start to use Therion as well, as they too were very pleased with the resulting complete map. Thanks again for the friendly help, best regards and Glückauf! Christian PS. Would it be of interest if I write a story "How a miner learned to use simple Therion"? I would like to give something back to the Therion users.

Am Sonntag, 8. Mai 2016, 08:07:02 schrieb Bruce <bruce@tomo.co.nz>:

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until the now curved line fitted my expectation, and inserted (seldom) points a-new where necessary, so I could realign the adit walls according to my memory and photos. Now I will apply this knowledge to some other surveys we made.

This is the way to amend old drawings, but if you are drawing new lines, then 'click-hold-drag' to create curves on the fly. Much faster.

Thank for the hint, I practiced that for a while, and while my first results were a bit… shitty I will get the hang of it.

...

PS. Would it be of interest if I write a story "How a miner learned to use simple Therion"? I would like to give something back to the Therion users.

I think you input would be valuable. Writing good guidance can be a big job. Probably best to have a look at the wiki, and make or suggest edits to fill some gaps or misleading information on the existing pages that are listed on the wiki front page. Therion for cavers Therion by examples Footlegs drawing tutorial latest draft Data organisation

Will do that, and while I am doing my next survey I will write the steps down. This may take a while, but I will not forget it. And I will look over the wiki pages you mentioned, but I have to admit I do have difficulties to understand a lot of things there. Best regards and Glückauf! Christian

Am Freitag, 6. Mai 2016, 20:14:56 schrieb Bruce <bruce@tomo.co.nz>: Hallo Bruce,

http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/faq#how_do_i_print_only_cave_or_s urface_stations_with_a_particular_mark_ie_fixed_or_painted

you are correct; that's _way_ too advanced for me, if desirable at all. It was a great help to me to see what does not work, and what work-flow is not meant to be followed, so to say. So, for my next steps, if I need to see the centreline/ polygon draw as a intermediate output, would it be the right way to out-line the intermediate polygon lrud shadowings via the map editor to get correctly set walls, which were then filled correctly? Best regards, Christian