I have just discovered a wonderous thing. Where surface points in a survey centreline are included in a map, the labels will self organise so that they don't overlap. See example 1 and 2 attached. This effect goes away I think when the points are included in a scrap. It also does not have effect between separate map objects. Is this default therion behaviour, or is it directly inherited from tex? Could it be implemented in outputs derived from scrap drawings? Now on to my short-term deadline question! Why might example 1 have +s in on all the points and example 2 have all the +s missing? I have not done any redefinition of points (unless by accident, and then they should be identical), and I think my symbol-show, symbol-hides are similar (though not the same I admit). Both the images are from the same dataset, just in different regions a few km apart, and also in different parallel branches of the survey structure, so somewhat independent of each other. Both have caves displayed in a similar manner to example 2, it's just that the caves in example 1 were not included in the screenshot. As you can see, the map structure in example 1 is very simple (the old paper cave map was traced in outline only in therion), whereas example 2 has perhaps 100 maps as it is a 15km cave drawn entirely with therion. I have turned off the layers which would have made the image confusing. Any guesses as to which symbol-show (or other statement) directly effects the + part of the point symbol, as I would like to show them in both cases? I'm also still looking for a way to show the labels for fixed points (and leave other point labels unaffected). What is the 'property' that Loch uses to make the distinction in it's data file? Bruce
