By survey 'name' do you mean what the therion book calls the 'id'? I always use id and title for surveys but I have not been using 'id' or 'title' for centerlines, didn't notice they were available - will help me with my organization! I posted on a similar topic a year or so ago. I'd like much better list control with optionally many more of the fields that therion collects. At present they are too limited, the data is 'in' Therion, but we can't get it out. To me the 'title' is or should be representative of the name that cavers colloquially use, so that gets rid of one of your 'names'. Don't have time to get to the gist of what you are trying to achieve, sorry, but maybe later. I agree that the database is potentially quite useful, but my fumbling experimentations have only ever resulted in extremely cumbersome beasts that, without considerable database experience, are just too hard to use. Have you a secret to making database usage available to the masses? Bruce