At long last I thought I'd try out the new font-setup layout syntax and min-symbol-scale. There has been no feedback since it was released so I assumed all must be working perfectly. I have found some issues though. The min-symbol-scale does not seem to hide wall point altitudes. A bug I presume. And there are some new disciplines to drawing, like it you don't make your arrows have the same -scale as the labels they are associated with, things look a bit odd with some min-symbol-scale combinations. That is OK, just something new to do. However, min-symbol-scale l and min-symbol-scale xl both tend to hide the cave walls, which naturally enough have -scale m by default I suppose. This is problematic, as it tends to hide the very essence of the cave map that one wants to emphasize by hiding the smaller symbols! It just leaves behind areas, map-connections, and xl symbols and text. I am hoping to get to the point where I can hide all text except that which is larger than -scale xl. ie I'd like to use something like min-symbol-scale xl to hide most text and symbols, and fonts-setup to set the size of xl to 0. Then I am hoping that any text that has a -scale (number) that happens to be greater than the size of xl will continue to be displayed. Useful for applying labels to the likes of overview maps, say at 1:5000. Liberal usage of symbol-hide as well. I abandoned trying this just now due to the problem with displaying walls. fonts-setup works similar to the old original code metapost fonts_setup(6,8,10,12,16); but seems to have too many checks and limitations. They both have the problem that you cannot set the font size to zero (you get error code 3). Setting the metapost font size to 0.01 works, but you do get messy dots and extra file size, as the text is still in the pdf. fonts-setup layout does not like having font sizes out of order (each must be larger than the next) and if not it crashes. I would prefer a warning, as I can imagine uses where one might want to hide the largest text only, or to have some -scales equal. fonts-setup also complains if the size for xs is 0.01 I wonder if fonts-setup could include some coding trick to allow a font size of zero to remove the text from the output? And allow more flexibility in fonts-setup usage? I am using 5.4.1 + 88c8a06 Bruce