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    Hi Bruce,<br>
    <br>
    I have hundreds of fixed points with different accuarcy and never
    noticed the effect you are describing. However, I am not fixing
    directly the coordinates of stations of my survey. I always create
    independant fixed points and then equate them to the survey
    stations. In your case, this would give something like:<br>
    <br>
       fix GPS_12   1562372 5439558 992    20 20 20  # entrance<br>
       equate GPS_12 12@01<br>
       fix GPS_0      1562117 5440239 1080  5  5   20  # another
    entrance<br>
       equate GPS_0 0@10<br>
       fix GPS_120  1562124 5439500 1020  10 10 10  #entrance three<br>
       equate GPS_120 120@05<br>
    <br>
    An advantage of this strategy is that I can comment all the equates
    but one to start with and verify with Aven on the 3d file where are
    the GPS points located with respect to the cave survey. That way, I
    can spot the outliers in the GPS points (or the errors in their
    retranscription) and iteratively validate the equates.<br>
    <br>
    Xavier<br>
    <br>
    PS: between us, I would not qualify your gps stddev below as very
    rough. A stddev of 5 meters about the smallest I use when I get long
    GPS averages (more than 30 minutes) with one of the a differential
    satellites. <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 22/12/2013 01:35, Bruce a écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:305BEB3C9A2A4F49ADE1BAE2C6A77A91@JUICEBRAIN"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">I got some
              unexpected results recently when I added some
              very rough gps coordinates to my survey for a cave that
              has three entrances. 
              Because they are approximate I added some estimates of
              standard errors as below,
              so that I could get Therion to factor the relative
              accuracy into the loop
              closure.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">   fix 12@01  
               1562372 5439558
              992    20 20 20  # entrance<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">   fix 0@10
                   1562117
              5440239 1080  5  5   20  # another entrance<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">   fix 120@05
               1562124 5439500 1020  10
              10 10  #entrance three<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">With any ONE of the
              entrances fixed as above, the
              cave plots accurately – I can verify this in Google Earth.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">As soon as I have
              any two or more entrances fixed,
              then the cave distorts significantly, and the entrances
              are stretched some
              hundreds of metres away from the centroid of the cave. 
              Also quite often
              getting ‘scrap exceeding maximal scale’ errors if I output
              to pdf.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">I checked this was
              not just a feature of that dataset
              by mocking up a similar situation in two other datasets,
              and got similar
              results.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">The work around
              seems to be to avoid using the
              standard errors;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">   fix 12@01  
               1562372 5439558
              992    #20 20 20   entrance<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">   fix 0@10
                   1562117
              5440239 1080  #5  5   20   another entrance<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">   fix 120@05
               1562124 5439500 1020  #10
              10 10  entrance three<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">but this then
              results in each gps location receiving
              equal weighting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">I think I might
              have noticed this problem a few years
              ago, and gave up on trying to sort it out because I wasn’t
              able to
              identify the characteristics of the problem well enough.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Anyone else having
              problems like this?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Or identify a
              reason why what I am trying to do is
              not possible?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Or is it a bug?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Bruce<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
              style="font-size:
              10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
> -------------------------
> Xavier Pennec
> Senior Research Scientist / Directeur de recherche
> Asclepios project-team, INRIA Sophia-Antipolis
> 2004 Route des Lucioles, BP93
> F-06902 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex, France
> +33 4 92 38 76 64
> +33 6 78 35 16 90
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www-sop.inria.fr/asclepios/">http://www-sop.inria.fr/asclepios/</a>
> -------------------------------
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