<div dir="ltr"><div><div>A very useful account of the various options Bruce. Well worth adding to the wiki!<br><br></div>I will experiment with some of my caves were I have LRUD data but have not entered it into Therion to see if I can improve my models.<br>
<br></div>Footleg<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 20 July 2013 23:12, Bruce <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bruce@tomo.co.nz" target="_blank">bruce@tomo.co.nz</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Footleg<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">I think the answer is ‘yes’.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Hopefully you can view the images embedded in the
image rather than attached, otherwise this won’t make much sense.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">In this example there is a single centreline (comprising
both cave and surface survey) and 4 scraps.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">A short section of cave at the left hand end does not
have any scrap drawn.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Compiled with Therion 5.3.11<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">One interesting point is that regardless of the ‘walls’
setting, there is never a tube generated there once we have scraps drawn
anywhere in this centreline. My deduction is that Loch uses only one type
of tube generation per centreline, because in almost all my larger projects that
transition between traditional survey and paperless survey, I have a
combination of each type of tube generation within the same <u></u>Loch<u></u>
model.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">This fits with the description in the Therion Book<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-style:italic" lang="EN-NZ">“walls
<auto/on/off> turn on/off passage shape generation from LRUD data
for<u></u><u></u></span></font></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-style:italic" lang="EN-NZ">subsequent shots.
If set auto, passage is generated only if there is no scrap referencing<u></u><u></u></span></font></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-style:italic" lang="EN-NZ">given centreline.”<u></u><u></u></span></font></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">In these examples I have not used any ‘point
passage-height’ or ‘point dimensions’ in the scraps.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><img src="cid:image001.jpg@01CE85FA.B2455710" height="363" width="439"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Paperless survey (no LRUD), walls auto, off or on (or
not specified), No plan scraps. [<u></u>Loch<u></u> always guesses
tube dimensions]<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">-same if LRUD present and walls off<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><img src="cid:image002.jpg@01CE85FA.B2455710" height="346" width="435"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Paperless survey (no LRUD), walls auto, off or on (or
not specified), plan scraps drawn [<u></u>Loch<u></u> uses
scraps for tube width and guesses tube height]<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Now, I added a few LRUD to the same centreline,
including some with only UD<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> data dimensions station left right up down<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> 1.4 - - 20 20<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> 1.5 - - 20 20<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> 1.6 2 2 20 20<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> 3.13 10 10 20 20<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> 3.14 10 10 20 20<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Tube generation, where it occurs extends one station
beyond those specified.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><img src="cid:image003.jpg@01CE85FA.B2455710" height="438" width="442"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Paperless survey (some LRUD), walls on or auto (or not
specified), No plan scraps. [<u></u>Loch<u></u> uses LRUD
for tube dimensions and only for stations where partial data is provided, it
guesses the missing data ie if a station has no data, no tube is
generated]<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">And now adding some scraps and things get
interesting.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><img src="cid:image004.jpg@01CE85FA.B2455710" height="434" width="456"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Paperless survey (some LRUD), walls off (or not
specified), Plan scraps drawn. [<u></u>Loch<u></u> uses scraps,
not LR, for tube plan dimensions, and UD for height where specified, otherwise
height is guessed. Where there are no scraps, LRUD is <u>not</u> used.]<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">That is perhaps contrary to what one might expect
from the Therion Book ‘walls’ entry. It also produces perhaps
the best model.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><img src="cid:image005.jpg@01CE85FA.B2455710" height="438" width="458"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Paperless survey (some LRUD), walls on or auto, Plan
scraps drawn. [<u></u>Loch<u></u> uses scraps AND LR for
tube plan dimensions, and UD for height where specified, otherwise height is guessed.
Where there is no LR, then it is guessed. Where there are no scraps, LRUD <u>is</u>
used.]<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">If I change the LRUD definition like this…<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> data dimensions station up down<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> 1.4 20 20<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> 1.5 20 20<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> 1.6 20 20<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> data dimensions station left right up
down <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> 3.13 10 10 20 20<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"> 3.14 10 10 20 20<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">..then the guessed width troubles continue.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><img src="cid:image006.jpg@01CE85FA.B2455710" height="462" width="463"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Paperless survey (some LRUD), walls on or auto, Plan
scraps drawn. [same as above]<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">So my final conclusion, for paperless survey, no need
to include walls statements in each survey, or if you do, walls off is better
than on or auto. If you happen to provide some UD data, then your model will be
improved (more realistic).<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">I surmise that with these same settings, scraps with
point passage-height or point dimensions will have a similar effect, but I have
not tested this.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></span></font></p><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ">Bruce<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-NZ"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</font></span></div>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Therion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Therion@speleo.sk">Therion@speleo.sk</a><br>
<a href="http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion" target="_blank">http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>