fixed point std error causes extreme survey network distortion
I got some unexpected results recently when I added some very rough gps coordinates to my survey for a cave that has three entrances. Because they are approximate I added some estimates of standard errors as below, so that I could get Therion to factor the relative accuracy into the loop closure. fix 12@01 1562372 5439558 992 20 20 20 # entrance fix 0@10 1562117 5440239 1080 5 5 20 # another entrance fix 120@05 1562124 5439500 1020 10 10 10 #entrance three With any ONE of the entrances fixed as above, the cave plots accurately - I can verify this in Google Earth. As soon as I have any two or more entrances fixed, then the cave distorts significantly, and the entrances are stretched some hundreds of metres away from the centroid of the cave. Also quite often getting 'scrap exceeding maximal scale' errors if I output to pdf. I checked this was not just a feature of that dataset by mocking up a similar situation in two other datasets, and got similar results. The work around seems to be to avoid using the standard errors; fix 12@01 1562372 5439558 992 #20 20 20 entrance fix 0@10 1562117 5440239 1080 #5 5 20 another entrance fix 120@05 1562124 5439500 1020 #10 10 10 entrance three but this then results in each gps location receiving equal weighting. I think I might have noticed this problem a few years ago, and gave up on trying to sort it out because I wasn't able to identify the characteristics of the problem well enough. Anyone else having problems like this? Or identify a reason why what I am trying to do is not possible? Or is it a bug? Bruce
Hi Bruce, I have hundreds of fixed points with different accuarcy and never noticed the effect you are describing. However, I am not fixing directly the coordinates of stations of my survey. I always create independant fixed points and then equate them to the survey stations. In your case, this would give something like: fix GPS_12 1562372 5439558 992 20 20 20 # entrance equate GPS_12 12@01 fix GPS_0 1562117 5440239 1080 5 5 20 # another entrance equate GPS_0 0@10 fix GPS_120 1562124 5439500 1020 10 10 10 #entrance three equate GPS_120 120@05 An advantage of this strategy is that I can comment all the equates but one to start with and verify with Aven on the 3d file where are the GPS points located with respect to the cave survey. That way, I can spot the outliers in the GPS points (or the errors in their retranscription) and iteratively validate the equates. Xavier PS: between us, I would not qualify your gps stddev below as very rough. A stddev of 5 meters about the smallest I use when I get long GPS averages (more than 30 minutes) with one of the a differential satellites. Le 22/12/2013 01:35, Bruce a écrit :
I got some unexpected results recently when I added some very rough gps coordinates to my survey for a cave that has three entrances. Because they are approximate I added some estimates of standard errors as below, so that I could get Therion to factor the relative accuracy into the loop closure.
fix 12@01 1562372 5439558 992 20 20 20 # entrance
fix 0@10 1562117 5440239 1080 5 5 20 # another entrance
fix 120@05 1562124 5439500 1020 10 10 10 #entrance three
With any ONE of the entrances fixed as above, the cave plots accurately -- I can verify this in Google Earth.
As soon as I have any two or more entrances fixed, then the cave distorts significantly, and the entrances are stretched some hundreds of metres away from the centroid of the cave. Also quite often getting 'scrap exceeding maximal scale' errors if I output to pdf.
I checked this was not just a feature of that dataset by mocking up a similar situation in two other datasets, and got similar results.
The work around seems to be to avoid using the standard errors;
fix 12@01 1562372 5439558 992 #20 20 20 entrance
fix 0@10 1562117 5440239 1080 #5 5 20 another entrance
fix 120@05 1562124 5439500 1020 #10 10 10 entrance three
but this then results in each gps location receiving equal weighting.
I think I might have noticed this problem a few years ago, and gave up on trying to sort it out because I wasn't able to identify the characteristics of the problem well enough.
Anyone else having problems like this?
Or identify a reason why what I am trying to do is not possible?
Or is it a bug?
Bruce
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------------------------- Xavier Pennec Senior Research Scientist / Directeur de recherche Asclepios project-team, INRIA Sophia-Antipolis 2004 Route des Lucioles, BP93 F-06902 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex, France +33 4 92 38 76 64 +33 6 78 35 16 90 http://www-sop.inria.fr/asclepios/ -------------------------------
Hi Xavier I tried your approach and like it a lot. Unfortunately I get the same result; -specified std errors result in gross distortion, -no std errors give accurate survey plot (but forced to specified gps location without accounting for its inaccuracy) Other ideas? Perhaps its time to try 5.3.12 Bruce _____ From: therion-bounces@speleo.sk [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Xavier Pennec Sent: Sunday, 22 December 2013 9:52 p.m. To: therion@speleo.sk Subject: Re: [Therion] fixed point std error causes extreme survey network distortion Hi Bruce, I have hundreds of fixed points with different accuarcy and never noticed the effect you are describing. However, I am not fixing directly the coordinates of stations of my survey. I always create independant fixed points and then equate them to the survey stations. In your case, this would give something like: fix GPS_12 1562372 5439558 992 20 20 20 # entrance equate GPS_12 12@01 fix GPS_0 1562117 5440239 1080 5 5 20 # another entrance equate GPS_0 0@10 fix GPS_120 1562124 5439500 1020 10 10 10 #entrance three equate GPS_120 120@05 An advantage of this strategy is that I can comment all the equates but one to start with and verify with Aven on the 3d file where are the GPS points located with respect to the cave survey. That way, I can spot the outliers in the GPS points (or the errors in their retranscription) and iteratively validate the equates. Xavier PS: between us, I would not qualify your gps stddev below as very rough. A stddev of 5 meters about the smallest I use when I get long GPS averages (more than 30 minutes) with one of the a differential satellites. Le 22/12/2013 01:35, Bruce a écrit : I got some unexpected results recently when I added some very rough gps coordinates to my survey for a cave that has three entrances. Because they are approximate I added some estimates of standard errors as below, so that I could get Therion to factor the relative accuracy into the loop closure. fix 12@01 1562372 5439558 992 20 20 20 # entrance fix 0@10 1562117 5440239 1080 5 5 20 # another entrance fix 120@05 1562124 5439500 1020 10 10 10 #entrance three With any ONE of the entrances fixed as above, the cave plots accurately I can verify this in Google Earth. As soon as I have any two or more entrances fixed, then the cave distorts significantly, and the entrances are stretched some hundreds of metres away from the centroid of the cave. Also quite often getting scrap exceeding maximal scale errors if I output to pdf. I checked this was not just a feature of that dataset by mocking up a similar situation in two other datasets, and got similar results. The work around seems to be to avoid using the standard errors; fix 12@01 1562372 5439558 992 #20 20 20 entrance fix 0@10 1562117 5440239 1080 #5 5 20 another entrance fix 120@05 1562124 5439500 1020 #10 10 10 entrance three but this then results in each gps location receiving equal weighting. I think I might have noticed this problem a few years ago, and gave up on trying to sort it out because I wasnt able to identify the characteristics of the problem well enough. Anyone else having problems like this? Or identify a reason why what I am trying to do is not possible? Or is it a bug? Bruce
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Xavier Pennec