Hello Well Bruce you spurred me into action, and I have produced some web pages, that allow users to search the database. It can be a little slow, especially the passage height query. Even the form is slow to load, and no indication is given that it is working. Finding the heights are quite quick it is the checking to see if they are underground that take the time, oh well probably can be optimised, but someone better than me. It is set up so that more searches can be easily added. Known problems Passage height gives meaningless results if one or both of the heights given are between the min and max. AJAX menu does not work on all browsers. Which brings me back to the where this all started, it would be more user-friendly to do searches on passage names as people call them. IE how long is 'Route 66' Currently to do this they would have to know that 'Route 66' was made up of the second half of Diesel Duck plus Onion and the first half of 'hall of time'. The first and last of these is not searchable? Have a look at http://wotcc.org.uk/Cheddar/ (the style is stolen from ubss.org.uk) If people think that it is useful, I'll add the code to the wiki, you should be able to edit the config file and it should then drop in to any site. Extra Searches can be added to the Searches Directory, so it should be adaptable. Works with mySQL. Andrew
Nice work, Andrew. Please, add the units (I know you think in feets) :) m. On 10.1.2011, at 17:59, Andrew Atkinson wrote:
Hello
Well Bruce you spurred me into action, and I have produced some web pages, that allow users to search the database.
It can be a little slow, especially the passage height query. Even the form is slow to load, and no indication is given that it is working. Finding the heights are quite quick it is the checking to see if they are underground that take the time, oh well probably can be optimised, but someone better than me.
It is set up so that more searches can be easily added.
Known problems
Passage height gives meaningless results if one or both of the heights given are between the min and max. AJAX menu does not work on all browsers.
Which brings me back to the where this all started, it would be more user-friendly to do searches on passage names as people call them. IE how long is 'Route 66' Currently to do this they would have to know that 'Route 66' was made up of the second half of Diesel Duck plus Onion and the first half of 'hall of time'. The first and last of these is not searchable?
Have a look at
(the style is stolen from ubss.org.uk)
If people think that it is useful, I'll add the code to the wiki, you should be able to edit the config file and it should then drop in to any site. Extra Searches can be added to the Searches Directory, so it should be adaptable.
Works with mySQL.
Andrew
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
I personally do not think in feet. (Britain officially became metric the year I was born!!!! Granted it is hard to tell. (The currency got done at least) It was the 1884 Meridian conference that Britain agreed to go metric if Greenwich was the Meridian instead of France, or so the rumours go..... Printed in a UK maths text book so must be true, I get away from the point) At the moment the search returns what is in the database, no mention of units, as I was not sure if every database would be in metre, or if you used feet it would be feet. Same for grads and other units of angle, although this is changeable in the config. What I need to know, and the information is probably in the documentation somewhere, is if the default units are degrees and metre, if not what the options are. I will add feet, should not be too difficult, after I have got searches by name to work at a realistic speed Andrew On 10/01/11 18:10, Martin Sluka wrote:
Nice work, Andrew. Please, add the units (I know you think in feets) :)
m.
On 10.1.2011, at 17:59, Andrew Atkinson wrote:
Hello
Well Bruce you spurred me into action, and I have produced some web pages, that allow users to search the database.
It can be a little slow, especially the passage height query. Even the form is slow to load, and no indication is given that it is working. Finding the heights are quite quick it is the checking to see if they are underground that take the time, oh well probably can be optimised, but someone better than me.
It is set up so that more searches can be easily added.
Known problems
Passage height gives meaningless results if one or both of the heights given are between the min and max. AJAX menu does not work on all browsers.
Which brings me back to the where this all started, it would be more user-friendly to do searches on passage names as people call them. IE how long is 'Route 66' Currently to do this they would have to know that 'Route 66' was made up of the second half of Diesel Duck plus Onion and the first half of 'hall of time'. The first and last of these is not searchable?
Have a look at
(the style is stolen from ubss.org.uk)
If people think that it is useful, I'll add the code to the wiki, you should be able to edit the config file and it should then drop in to any site. Extra Searches can be added to the Searches Directory, so it should be adaptable.
Works with mySQL.
Andrew
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 18:37:19 +0000, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk> wrote:
I personally do not think in feet. (Britain officially became metric the year I was born!!!! Granted it is hard to tell. (The currency got done at least) It was the 1884 Meridian conference that Britain agreed to go metric if Greenwich was the Meridian instead of France, or so the rumours go..... Printed in a UK maths text book so must be true, I get away from the point)
At the moment the search returns what is in the database, no mention of units, as I was not sure if every database would be in metre, or if you used feet it would be feet. Same for grads and other units of angle, although this is changeable in the config. What I need to know, and the information is probably in the documentation somewhere, is if the default units are degrees and metre, if not what the options are.
AFAIK default units are degrees and metres but can be set in survey/layout/ini file...
I will add feet, should not be too difficult, after I have got searches by name to work at a realistic speed
Andrew
On 10/01/11 18:10, Martin Sluka wrote:
Nice work, Andrew. Please, add the units (I know you think in feets) :)
m.
On 10.1.2011, at 17:59, Andrew Atkinson wrote:
Hello
Well Bruce you spurred me into action, and I have produced some web pages, that allow users to search the database.
It can be a little slow, especially the passage height query. Even the form is slow to load, and no indication is given that it is working. Finding the heights are quite quick it is the checking to see if they are underground that take the time, oh well probably can be optimised, but someone better than me.
It is set up so that more searches can be easily added.
Known problems
Passage height gives meaningless results if one or both of the heights given are between the min and max. AJAX menu does not work on all browsers.
Which brings me back to the where this all started, it would be more user-friendly to do searches on passage names as people call them. IE how long is 'Route 66' Currently to do this they would have to know that 'Route 66' was made up of the second half of Diesel Duck plus Onion and the first half of 'hall of time'. The first and last of these is not searchable?
Have a look at
(the style is stolen from ubss.org.uk)
If people think that it is useful, I'll add the code to the wiki, you should be able to edit the config file and it should then drop in to any site. Extra Searches can be added to the Searches Directory, so it should be adaptable.
Works with mySQL.
Andrew
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
-- Ladislav Blazek http://lada.blazcata.cz - fotogalerie http://www.jeskynar.cz - kras, pseudokras, jeskyne a podzemi
Which brings me back to the where this all started, it would be more user-friendly to do searches on passage names as people call them. IE how long is 'Route 66' Currently to do this they would have to know that 'Route 66' was made up of the second half of Diesel Duck plus Onion and the first half of 'hall of time'. The first and last of these is not searchable?
I see your point, but if this degree of user interrogation is required, might it not be better to rationalise the survey, centreline or map objects in the particular dataset than add a new entity to the Therion data model? For example one could choose to use the 'colloquial names' as the survey id or as part of the map object title, and then in concept they could probably be searchable. Maybe a new surveyor discipline is required; always start and stop a survey at the point where the 'name' of a passage changes. In my experience the boundary between particular passage or region names in caves is fuzzy and evolves as the cave is explored and tends to be different for each group of cavers. In any case, as passage is being discovered, it rarely has a name at the time of survey. I think it is reasonable to be able to ask; How long is this centreline? Survey? Map object? And (apart from centrelines maybe) Therion already allows this. I suspect adding another layer of name object is probably unnecessary complication. It comes back to my hobby horse (I think). Data organisation is the key to getting Therion to be flexible and scalable from tiny caves to enormous systems surveyed by every conceivable means etc etc. I suspect the Route 66 question can be answered by judicious planning of the map object structure, and of course this means that every therion cave dataset needs to be carefully organised. I'm not really sure as I still have not completely made friends with maps/previews/offsets/atlases, but I think if I apply myself to it I can come up with a system that is modular and compatible with every type of output. My 2 cents... Other ideas?
On 10/01/11 19:41, Bruce wrote:
Which brings me back to the where this all started, it would be more user-friendly to do searches on passage names as people call them. IE how long is 'Route 66' Currently to do this they would have to know that 'Route 66' was made up of the second half of Diesel Duck plus Onion and the first half of 'hall of time'. The first and last of these is not searchable?
I see your point, but if this degree of user interrogation is required, might it not be better to rationalise the survey, centreline or map objects in the particular dataset than add a new entity to the Therion data model?
For example one could choose to use the 'colloquial names' as the survey id or as part of the map object title, and then in concept they could probably be searchable. Maybe a new surveyor discipline is required; always start and stop a survey at the point where the 'name' of a passage changes. In my experience the boundary between particular passage or region names in caves is fuzzy and evolves as the cave is explored and tends to be different for each group of cavers. In any case, as passage is being discovered, it rarely has a name at the time of survey.
I think it is reasonable to be able to ask; How long is this centreline? Survey? Map object? And (apart from centrelines maybe) Therion already allows this. I suspect adding another layer of name object is probably unnecessary complication. It comes back to my hobby horse (I think). Data organisation is the key to getting Therion to be flexible and scalable from tiny caves to enormous systems surveyed by every conceivable means etc etc.
I suspect the Route 66 question can be answered by judicious planning of the map object structure, and of course this means that every therion cave dataset needs to be carefully organised. I'm not really sure as I still have not completely made friends with maps/previews/offsets/atlases, but I think if I apply myself to it I can come up with a system that is modular and compatible with every type of output.
As you say, I tend to have the surveys, including scraps in before the names are thought of, never mind set. I agree that data organisation, is a surveying programs primary aim, but I strongly disagree that the data structure should be tied to the cave names, which it would be if I understand your suggestion correctly. Most names change at junctions, which is the last place you want to change scraps (I do not think that scrap or map names are currently in the database.) I follow the edict that surveying should be done naturally, ie survey what you find, with as little artificial breaks as possible, so breaking for colloquial names (good tag) would not fit this, plus I am not sure it is possible. I the moment I do not see the advantage to having a survey name and a title, I could live without the second, but I guess it is well embedded by now. (Please tell me if I am missing something fundamental?) Although I can see a problem with displaying the colloquial names I feel that it could be implemented a little like the tags for surface, duplicate etc. This would allow it to have more than one, which often happens with names, onion passage is part of Route 66. I think that this has clarified to me a method, I personally would like to see something like colloquial <name1> [,<name2>....] inserting a newe tag would just add to the list, to finish something like endcolloquial <name1> would be needed. This has been the main complaint of people new to surveying that I have had, and for my sins I have trained quiet a few people, as I think I said in a previous email, I know of one group that did re-organised hundreds of km of survey so the 3D diagram showed real names. The tagging system (or something better) may be useful in this, but it certainly come into its own on database searches. I hope it can be added to future plans. Andrew
-----Original Message----- From: therion-bounces@speleo.sk [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Andrew Atkinson Sent: Tuesday, 11 January 2011 9:44 a.m. To: List for Therion users Subject: Re: [Therion] Passage Names On 10/01/11 19:41, Bruce wrote:
Which brings me back to the where this all started, it would be more user-friendly to do searches on passage names as people call them. IE how long is 'Route 66' Currently to do this they would have to know that 'Route 66' was made up of the second half of Diesel Duck plus Onion and the first half of 'hall of time'. The first and last of these is not searchable?
I see your point, but if this degree of user interrogation is required, might it not be better to rationalise the survey, centreline or map objects in the particular dataset than add a new entity to the Therion data model?
For example one could choose to use the 'colloquial names' as the survey id or as part of the map object title, and then in concept they could probably be searchable. Maybe a new surveyor discipline is required; always start and stop a survey at the point where the 'name' of a passage changes. In my experience the boundary between particular passage or region names in caves is fuzzy and evolves as the cave is explored and tends to be different for each group of cavers. In any case, as passage is being discovered, it rarely has a name at the time of survey.
I think it is reasonable to be able to ask; How long is this centreline? Survey? Map object? And (apart from centrelines maybe) Therion already allows this. I suspect adding another layer of name object is probably unnecessary complication. It comes back to my hobby horse (I think). Data organisation is the key to getting Therion to be flexible and scalable from tiny caves to enormous systems surveyed by every conceivable means etc etc.
I suspect the Route 66 question can be answered by judicious planning of the map object structure, and of course this means that every therion cave dataset needs to be carefully organised. I'm not really sure as I still have not completely made friends with maps/previews/offsets/atlases, but I think if I apply myself to it I can come up with a system that is modular and compatible with every type of output.
|As you say, I tend to have the surveys, including scraps in before the |names are thought of, never mind set. I agree that data organisation, is |a surveying programs primary aim, but I strongly disagree that the data |structure should be tied to the cave names, which it would be if I |understand your suggestion correctly. Most names change at junctions, |which is the last place you want to change scraps |(I do not think that scrap or map names are currently in the database.) It seems not, according to the Therion Book, so that cans tying anything much to the map objects. |I follow the edict that surveying should be done naturally, ie survey |what you find, with as little artificial breaks as possible, so breaking |for colloquial names (good tag) would not fit this, plus I am not sure |it is possible. I agree, I was being a bit provocative suggesting that survey centrelines might be changed at a whim to suit cave naming. |I the moment I do not see the advantage to having a |survey name and a title, I could live without the second, but I guess it |is well embedded by now. (Please tell me if I am missing something |fundamental?) Looking back over the few years I have been using Therion I now realise that for a long time my injudicious use of titles was making my map and survey arrangements hard to manage because of Therions limited reporting (if a title exists the id is suppressed, so if the title is vague or misleading then you are completely lost. Use of either Survey Titles or Map Titles is also chosen automatically by Therion). So the easy way is to not use titles, except that titles, if they exist, provide appropriate default naming for map and atlas outputs. I still use titles, but always check that they refer to the correct survey id and name of the cave region. |Although I can see a problem with displaying the colloquial names I feel |that it could be implemented a little like the tags for surface, |duplicate etc. This would allow it to have more than one, which often |happens with names, onion passage is part of Route 66. |I think that this has clarified to me a method, I personally would like |to see something like |colloquial <name1> [,<name2>....] |inserting a new tag would just add to the list, to finish something like |endcolloquial <name1> |would be needed. Yep, I like this idea, just another type of shot tag (sort of). Reminds me, I have some issues or misunderstandings with the way the current tags work. I'll follow up with another thread. |This has been the main complaint of people new to surveying that I have |had, and for my sins I have trained quiet a few people, as I think I |said in a previous email, I know of one group that did re-organised |hundreds of km of survey so the 3D diagram showed real names. Ouch! Bruce
Wow Andrew I like it. Presumably one can run it on local sql files (stored on your computer, not a web page)? A minor terminology thing: I presume passage height means passage altitude. I don't know much about UK caves, but if the majority of Cheddar caves have passages 200m to 240m high, then presumably many of them are also quite wide and the UK cavers that come to New Zealand have been lying about how tight their cave passages are! We'll have to think of some more useful searches... Perhaps by shot flag (surface, duplicate, splay, approximate, explored), By station flag (entrance, continuation, fixed, spring, sink, doline, dig, air-draught, overhang or arch), Loop closure information (not sure if this is in the sql output yet), Maybe even distance between stations - although that might be better done from Loch. Bruce
On 10/01/11 19:06, Bruce wrote:
Wow Andrew I like it.
Presumably one can run it on local sql files (stored on your computer, not a web page)?
It can be run locally but I believe the sql file has to be loaded into a sql server. Julian is trumpeting the idea of SQLit, as it can work on a database like a file, but I have not played with it, and he says it has no maths functions, which the searches require. (At the moment)
A minor terminology thing: I presume passage height means passage altitude. I don't know much about UK caves, but if the majority of Cheddar caves have passages 200m to 240m high, then presumably many of them are also quite wide and the UK cavers that come to New Zealand have been lying about how tight their cave passages are!
have you not heard of the new discoveries :) Good point.
We'll have to think of some more useful searches... Perhaps by shot flag (surface, duplicate, splay, approximate, explored), By station flag (entrance, continuation, fixed, spring, sink, doline, dig, air-draught, overhang or arch),
Yep lots of possibilities, given the time I will right the wiki page sometime this week hopefully
Loop closure information (not sure if this is in the sql output yet),
Don't think that is in there
Maybe even distance between stations - although that might be better done from Loch.
I think this is a function of loch Andrew
participants (4)
-
Andrew Atkinson -
Bruce -
Ladislav Blažek -
Martin Sluka