On 23.2.2007, at 13:56, Eric Madelaine, INRIA wrote: Sorry Martin, are you now speaking of the London Meeting, or of the Vercors UIS Congress ? We should change the title of this thread.
I apologize myself - there is subject "Re: [Therion] Meeting in London?... Vercors 2008", so my meaning was it is about Vercors.
I guess it is Vercors you had in mind. So what I know for sure is that there is already one half day slot allocated for a survey, with at least people from Toporobot. In any case, we need to gather enough information on people interested to present something on the various subjects already mentionned, and provide the organizers with our requests, including: - number (and duration) of presentations - size of the planned attendance (= size of the room) - requested equipement: computers, videopro, walls or grids for expositions (linear ?) - etc
No, my meaning of point 2 was not only the presentation of something, but real workshop for probably more than one day to exchange experience with using computer assisted cave cartography. Martin
Martin Sluka a écrit :
No, my meaning of point 2 was not only the presentation of something,
but real workshop for probably more than one day to exchange experience with using computer assisted cave cartography.
Oh, yes I see. Does not change the requirements, we have to provide practical info to the organizers. I think it is important that the workshop should be explicitely in the Congres program, both for visibility reasons and for practical reasons (no way to find a room in La Chapelle by ourself at that time). Eric.
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 02:14:23PM +0100, Eric Madelaine, INRIA wrote:
Does not change the requirements, we have to provide practical info to the organizers. I think it is important that the workshop should be explicitely in the Congres program, both for visibility reasons and for practical reasons (no way to find a room in La Chapelle by ourself at that time).
Well, I'd certainly like to come along, and I'm probably up for giving some sort of talk or presentation if I do. Cheers, Olly
Well, so here's my summary of the talks of this week : we can make a general discussion about cave surveys softwares (for example in the karst and cave inventory session already planned (with nothing inside and which I'm responsible for)) and after that, we propose to make a 2-levels workshop : for beginners or new users ; for advanced users and developpers. I propose that the second workshop take place AFTER the beginner's one, to take the advantage of the discussion of this first one. Now, the problem is to know the SIZE of our workshops. For the session, I think it's OK. I plan to make a full day of presentation and after that, a half-day round-table about CAVE INVENTORIES : I'd like to put on paper some general guidelines for european inventories, so that we can find on every national inventories in Europe some common features, at the same (top) level of records... For the workshops, the problem I know is that we don't have a lot of big rooms in Lans (Eric, it's in *Lans en Vercors*, not in La Chapelle)... And at the same time, it's not easy to make a workshop with a lot of persons. So it could be better to organize 2 level 1 workshops (one in the morning, the second in the afternoon) with maybe 20 persons. I think it could be better if the persons interested could register, to know how many persons will come (register directly at Vercors 2008 to me, and just after the general presentations). Do we ask the persons who will come to come with their laptop ?? Maybe 2 persons can work on one laptop ? For this first workshop, we could prepare a liveCD with a Linux and therion (last version) for the people who doesn't have therion installed... If someone know how to make such a LiveCD...? For the second workshop, I think we could register directly on this list ! So, that will be this in my opinion : Day 1 : (all day) General session about karst and cave inventories and survey softs (not only therion...) Day 2 : (morning) Round-table about cave inventories (morning) Therion workshop (level 1) (afternoon) Therion workshop (level 1) Day 3 : (morning) Therion workshop (level 2) Any comments are welcome of course !!!! Thierry Olly Betts a écrit :
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 02:14:23PM +0100, Eric Madelaine, INRIA wrote:
Does not change the requirements, we have to provide practical info to the organizers. I think it is important that the workshop should be explicitely in the Congres program, both for visibility reasons and for practical reasons (no way to find a room in La Chapelle by ourself at that time).
Well, I'd certainly like to come along, and I'm probably up for giving some sort of talk or presentation if I do.
Cheers, Olly _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
Hello Thierry, I clearly support the 2level planning, target respectively at users (beginners or not ) and at experts/developers. Do you already have ideas of other topics/people planned for the first level (I have heard of a toporobot presentation) ? Should we try to get people from the US survey software community also (I dont know how many plan to be there). I also have heard rumors about some display of fancy computer generated surveys. Anything official ? If we want to have many nice things displayed we have to advertise it widely; may be some sort of contest ? Speaking of Cave Inventories... I will certainly offer to do a presentation / demo of the software we are using in the Alpes-Maritimes. Otherwise, I'm nor very optimistic about the idea of "european guidelines"... I've been in several french level groups working on this topic, I've also been part of the HTO group, some 8 or 10 years ago... I know about the UIS existing guidelines... None of those has been very successful. The situation is particularily bad in france, and of course not for technical reasons, but for political reasons of people not wanting to loose control of their data. I don't think I want to invest more work in this area, unless the overall situation changes drastically. Eric. thierrygonon a écrit :
Well, so here's my summary of the talks of this week : we can make a general discussion about cave surveys softwares (for example in the karst and cave inventory session already planned (with nothing inside and which I'm responsible for)) and after that, we propose to make a 2-levels workshop : for beginners or new users ; for advanced users and developpers. I propose that the second workshop take place AFTER the beginner's one, to take the advantage of the discussion of this first one. Now, the problem is to know the SIZE of our workshops. For the session, I think it's OK. I plan to make a full day of presentation and after that, a half-day round-table about CAVE INVENTORIES : I'd like to put on paper some general guidelines for european inventories, so that we can find on every national inventories in Europe some common features, at the same (top) level of records... For the workshops, the problem I know is that we don't have a lot of big rooms in Lans (Eric, it's in *Lans en Vercors*, not in La Chapelle)... And at the same time, it's not easy to make a workshop with a lot of persons. So it could be better to organize 2 level 1 workshops (one in the morning, the second in the afternoon) with maybe 20 persons. I think it could be better if the persons interested could register, to know how many persons will come (register directly at Vercors 2008 to me, and just after the general presentations). Do we ask the persons who will come to come with their laptop ?? Maybe 2 persons can work on one laptop ? For this first workshop, we could prepare a liveCD with a Linux and therion (last version) for the people who doesn't have therion installed... If someone know how to make such a LiveCD...? For the second workshop, I think we could register directly on this list !
So, that will be this in my opinion : Day 1 : (all day) General session about karst and cave inventories and survey softs (not only therion...)
Day 2 : (morning) Round-table about cave inventories (morning) Therion workshop (level 1)
(afternoon) Therion workshop (level 1)
Day 3 : (morning) Therion workshop (level 2)
Any comments are welcome of course !!!!
Thierry
Olly Betts a écrit :
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 02:14:23PM +0100, Eric Madelaine, INRIA wrote:
Does not change the requirements, we have to provide practical info to the organizers. I think it is important that the workshop should be explicitely in the Congres program, both for visibility reasons and for practical reasons (no way to find a room in La Chapelle by ourself at that time).
Well, I'd certainly like to come along, and I'm probably up for giving some sort of talk or presentation if I do.
Cheers, Olly _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
thierrygonon wrote:
I plan to make a full day of presentation and after that, a half-day round-table about CAVE INVENTORIES : I'd like to put on paper some general guidelines for european inventories, so that we can find on every national inventories in Europe some common features, at the same (top) level of records...
Well, there's no point in waiting two years to do something. If I may make an observation that no inventory can work unless it actually does something -- you have to get rewarded for putting something into it because we can't punish people for not putting data into it. Here's a contribution to the effort: http://seagrass.goatchurch.org.uk/~mjg/cgi-bin/map.py All you need to post on the web is a location, scale, orientation and bitmap of a survey of whatever (low) quality you are comfortable with that doesn't infringe on your control of the data, and it can be seen in the global geographical context on any cave portal someone chooses to write (not necessarily on my own server). This would form the backbone of any cave inventory, and you guys can start adding a few examples to it now. Only after you've gathered some material examples from around the world, and shown that there is a method of engaging people in the project, is it worth doing a meeting to make it better organized. Julian T.
On Sun 25 Feb 2007, Julian Todd wrote:
Well, there's no point in waiting two years to do something. If I may make an observation that no inventory can work unless it actually does something -- you have to get rewarded for putting something into it because we can't punish people for not putting data into it. Here's a contribution to the effort:
That's neat. Nice work. Mike Lake Caver, Linux enthusiast and interested in anything technical.
OK, I agree with all current comments. I didn't know your project before, Julian ! It's quite nice and working well. May be one thing I can point out is that the datas stored about caves are not many... You only have coordinates ? I think that maybe we can add other levels of information, for people who want to add them. But clearly, your work is great and a very very good base of work !!! About Eric comments : I think that we can try to make the discussion very widely, including other softwares... We should organize a contest of Computer Aided Caving Surveys... However, the question here was to know if there is a dynamic to organize such a wide meeting about survey softs !! I know people are interested and I will try to define more precisely the programm and make a call for presentation for a wide community (not only therion one !!) Thierry Julian Todd a écrit :
thierrygonon wrote:
I plan to make a full day of presentation and after that, a half-day round-table about CAVE INVENTORIES : I'd like to put on paper some general guidelines for european inventories, so that we can find on every national inventories in Europe some common features, at the same (top) level of records...
Well, there's no point in waiting two years to do something. If I may make an observation that no inventory can work unless it actually does something -- you have to get rewarded for putting something into it because we can't punish people for not putting data into it. Here's a contribution to the effort:
http://seagrass.goatchurch.org.uk/~mjg/cgi-bin/map.py
All you need to post on the web is a location, scale, orientation and bitmap of a survey of whatever (low) quality you are comfortable with that doesn't infringe on your control of the data, and it can be seen in the global geographical context on any cave portal someone chooses to write (not necessarily on my own server). This would form the backbone of any cave inventory, and you guys can start adding a few examples to it now.
Only after you've gathered some material examples from around the world, and shown that there is a method of engaging people in the project, is it worth doing a meeting to make it better organized.
Julian T.
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
On 2/26/07, thierrygonon <thierrygonon@mac.com> wrote:
OK, I agree with all current comments. I didn't know your project before, Julian ! It's quite nice and working well. May be one thing I can point out is that the datas stored about caves are not many... You only have coordinates ?
At the moment, the entrance data is mostly automatically created from survex files, hence the lack of any detailed information. There is more information about the cave entrances of the loser plateau, held in a giant CSV file. I will get around to parsing it at some point and will provide something more useful, along with links to the relevant webpages. I was thinking the parsing of the CSV file should happen on the loser plateau server, and then send the requests via CGI to make the markers to the cave database server.
I think that maybe we can add other levels of information, for people who want to add them.
I would definitely like to see more information attached to each of the markers. At the moment an XML file on the server, can specify the WGS84 longitude, latitude, min and max zoom levels, the infobox html and the mouse hover text. Generalization such that any spatial reference system could be used rather than WGS84 longitude and latitude will probably be on the cards in the near future. I suspect there is a lot of information about caves in structured electronic formats, so it makes sense to try to reuse this information if possible rather than starting again. (With links back to the actual sources of information.) Possibly some of the entrances should be hand editable by anyone, whilst others are generated by scripts on other cavers servers. Julian is also looking into a way of putting such information onto wikipedia/wikisoure/wikicommons, and then having the survey viewer scrape off the information it wants. The risk might them be that the automatic scripts start overwriting peoples hand edited work. To prevent this there should probably be some way of locking the details of an entrance, to manual or automatic editing. Whether more structure is desirable needs to be considered. For example cave length and depth fields could be used to automatically display a selection of the most important caves. Whether it would be possible to have some sort of standard layout for the info box, I am not quite sure... Let me know if you have any ideas about how it should work. Or if you want to poke around the inside of the site to see how rough and ready my code is, ask Julian for a login to his server. I hope this post is not too off topic. Cheers, Martin
I will take more time tomorrow to make detailed replies to this subject, and make a point of what we want to make during this event... I will have more time tomorrow (doesn't it, Eric ?)!! Thierry Martin Sluka a écrit :
On 23.2.2007, at 13:56, Eric Madelaine, INRIA wrote: Sorry Martin, are you now speaking of the London Meeting, or of the Vercors UIS Congress ? We should change the title of this thread.
I apologize myself - there is subject "Re: [Therion] Meeting in London?... Vercors 2008", so my meaning was it is about Vercors.
I guess it is Vercors you had in mind. So what I know for sure is that there is already one half day slot allocated for a survey, with at least people from Toporobot. In any case, we need to gather enough information on people interested to present something on the various subjects already mentionned, and provide the organizers with our requests, including: - number (and duration) of presentations - size of the planned attendance (= size of the room) - requested equipement: computers, videopro, walls or grids for expositions (linear ?) - etc
No, my meaning of point 2 was not only the presentation of something, but real workshop for probably more than one day to exchange experience with using computer assisted cave cartography.
Martin _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
participants (8)
-
Eric Madelaine -
Eric Madelaine, INRIA -
Julian Todd -
Martin Green -
Martin Sluka -
Mike Lake -
Olly Betts -
thierrygonon