Many thanks Bruce for the confirmation of the crash on a different machine. It may may not be just linked to my environment, then. What is strange is that with more fixed with uncertainty, it sometimes works or crashes depending on which fixed stations are commented out. I could not find a regular pattern to characterize more the problem so far. Xavier PS: My try with Therion 5.3.15 that compiles also indicates that is does not find Cavern (which is also from a recent survex version). This is why it opts for the therion loop-closure algorithm which apparently still exhibits the bug "fixed point std error causes extreme survey network distortion" that we discussed in 2013. Le 09/09/2020 à 11:15, Bruce Mutton a écrit :

Xavier I don't have any insights, but can confirm on my Windows 10 machine, your files compile fine with 5.3.14, 5.3.15, 5.3.16 but crash as you describe with 5.4.1 and with recent 153d718 snapshot. I did not check to see whether the output looked sensible or not. I notice that my older versions report not finding Cavern, which is installed, but is from a recent Survex 1.2.43, so that could explain it. Bruce

-----Original Message----- From: Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Xavier Pennec Sent: Wednesday, 9 September 2020 09:18 To: 'List for Therion users' <therion@speleo.sk> Subject: [Therion] Bug with uncertainty on fixed station on windows 10?

Dear all,

I have a problem with the last version of therion (after 5.3.15) on windows 10 with fixed points endowed with a stddev. The very short example attached is ending with an error on the step "processing survey data" without leaving any trace (no log file, even with the -d flag). I could just catch the attached screen capture on the fly before it crashes. Same thing is happening with Therion 5.4.4, 5.4.2 and 5.4.1 (5.3.15 does not crashes but provides wrong results probably due to the version of survex which is too recent). However, the attached example works well on ubuntu with Therion 5.4.1 (with Survex 1.2.33) on a friend's computer.

Curiously, every thing works well on my windows 10 if I comment out the std dev on the fixed points... But I really need this uncertainty as the gps measures along a cliff are very uncertain due to reflections.

Any idea of what is going wrong and how to get around?

Thank you for any clue...

best

Xavier

--

------------------------- Xavier Pennec Senior Research Scientist / Directeur de recherche Asclepios project-team, INRIA Sophia-Antipolis 2004 Route des Lucioles, BP93 F-06902 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex, France +33 4 92 38 76 64 +33 6 78 35 16 90 https://team.inria.fr/epione/en/ -------------------------------

I forgot to point out that most of my projects probably have multiple fixed stations with uncertainty parameters set. I don't think I have experienced any problems, at least in recent times and with recent versions of Therion. So your example is interesting. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Xavier Pennec Sent: Thursday, 10 September 2020 00:20 To: therion@speleo.sk Subject: Re: [Therion] Bug with uncertainty on fixed station on windows 10? Many thanks Bruce for the confirmation of the crash on a different machine. It may may not be just linked to my environment, then. What is strange is that with more fixed with uncertainty, it sometimes works or crashes depending on which fixed stations are commented out. I could not find a regular pattern to characterize more the problem so far. Xavier PS: My try with Therion 5.3.15 that compiles also indicates that is does not find Cavern (which is also from a recent survex version). This is why it opts for the therion loop-closure algorithm which apparently still exhibits the bug "fixed point std error causes extreme survey network distortion" that we discussed in 2013. Le 09/09/2020 à 11:15, Bruce Mutton a écrit :

Xavier I don't have any insights, but can confirm on my Windows 10 machine, your files compile fine with 5.3.14, 5.3.15, 5.3.16 but crash as you describe with 5.4.1 and with recent 153d718 snapshot. I did not check to see whether the output looked sensible or not. I notice that my older versions report not finding Cavern, which is installed, but is from a recent Survex 1.2.43, so that could explain it. Bruce

-----Original Message----- From: Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Xavier Pennec Sent: Wednesday, 9 September 2020 09:18 To: 'List for Therion users' <therion@speleo.sk> Subject: [Therion] Bug with uncertainty on fixed station on windows 10?

Dear all,

I have a problem with the last version of therion (after 5.3.15) on windows 10 with fixed points endowed with a stddev. The very short example attached is ending with an error on the step "processing survey data" without leaving any trace (no log file, even with the -d flag). I could just catch the attached screen capture on the fly before it crashes. Same thing is happening with Therion 5.4.4, 5.4.2 and 5.4.1 (5.3.15 does not crashes but provides wrong results probably due to the version of survex which is too recent). However, the attached example works well on ubuntu with Therion 5.4.1 (with Survex 1.2.33) on a friend's computer.

Curiously, every thing works well on my windows 10 if I comment out the std dev on the fixed points... But I really need this uncertainty as the gps measures along a cliff are very uncertain due to reflections.

Any idea of what is going wrong and how to get around?

Thank you for any clue...

best

Xavier

--

------------------------- Xavier Pennec Senior Research Scientist / Directeur de recherche Asclepios project-team, INRIA Sophia-Antipolis 2004 Route des Lucioles, BP93 F-06902 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex, France +33 4 92 38 76 64 +33 6 78 35 16 90 https://team.inria.fr/epione/en/ -------------------------------

_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Yes, 6c41c82 enables me to compile Xavier’s example without error. Bruce From: Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Stacho Mudrak Sent: Thursday, 10 September 2020 08:46 To: List for Therion users <therion@speleo.sk> Subject: Re: [Therion] Bug with uncertainty on fixed station on windows 10? Hi Xavier, could you please try latest snapshot? This bug should be fixed. S.

Well, on my side, my projects with multiple fixed points with uncertainty that were compiling last years are now generally crashing at compilation. However, since I changed computer, therion and survex version, it is difficult to single out the reason. With no loop and several fixed points with uncertainty, it seems to crash systematically like in the example I posted. When it does not crash with multiple loops and multiple fixed points with uncertainty, it can either gives a .3d output that seems reasonable in aven, or it can displace one of the fixed points kilometres away, either in horizontal or vertical direction! Just fixing a point at 950 altitude can output a 3d file where the altitude is at -4000m....  A new way to explore abysses! I have just looked at the .3d result so far since I have not drawn all the maps yet in the cases where it compiles. As soon as I manage to set up a mock-up example, I will post it to document this amazing behaviour. Best Xavier Le 09/09/2020 à 22:34, Bruce Mutton a écrit :

I forgot to point out that most of my projects probably have multiple fixed stations with uncertainty parameters set. I don't think I have experienced any problems, at least in recent times and with recent versions of Therion. So your example is interesting. Bruce

-----Original Message----- From: Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Xavier Pennec Sent: Thursday, 10 September 2020 00:20 To: therion@speleo.sk Subject: Re: [Therion] Bug with uncertainty on fixed station on windows 10?

Many thanks Bruce for the confirmation of the crash on a different machine. It may may not be just linked to my environment, then.

What is strange is that with more fixed with uncertainty, it sometimes works or crashes depending on which fixed stations are commented out. I could not find a regular pattern to characterize more the problem so far.

Xavier

PS: My try with Therion 5.3.15 that compiles also indicates that is does not find Cavern (which is also from a recent survex version). This is why it opts for the therion loop-closure algorithm which apparently still exhibits the bug "fixed point std error causes extreme survey network distortion" that we discussed in 2013.

Le 09/09/2020 à 11:15, Bruce Mutton a écrit :

...

Xavier I don't have any insights, but can confirm on my Windows 10 machine, your files compile fine with 5.3.14, 5.3.15, 5.3.16 but crash as you describe with 5.4.1 and with recent 153d718 snapshot. I did not check to see whether the output looked sensible or not. I notice that my older versions report not finding Cavern, which is installed, but is from a recent Survex 1.2.43, so that could explain it. Bruce

-----Original Message----- From: Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Xavier Pennec Sent: Wednesday, 9 September 2020 09:18 To: 'List for Therion users' <therion@speleo.sk> Subject: [Therion] Bug with uncertainty on fixed station on windows 10?

Dear all,

I have a problem with the last version of therion (after 5.3.15) on windows 10 with fixed points endowed with a stddev. The very short example attached is ending with an error on the step "processing survey data" without leaving any trace (no log file, even with the -d flag). I could just catch the attached screen capture on the fly before it crashes. Same thing is happening with Therion 5.4.4, 5.4.2 and 5.4.1 (5.3.15 does not crashes but provides wrong results probably due to the version of survex which is too recent). However, the attached example works well on ubuntu with Therion 5.4.1 (with Survex 1.2.33) on a friend's computer.

Curiously, every thing works well on my windows 10 if I comment out the std dev on the fixed points... But I really need this uncertainty as the gps measures along a cliff are very uncertain due to reflections.

Any idea of what is going wrong and how to get around?

Thank you for any clue...

best

Xavier

--

------------------------- Xavier Pennec Senior Research Scientist / Directeur de recherche Asclepios project-team, INRIA Sophia-Antipolis 2004 Route des Lucioles, BP93 F-06902 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex, France +33 4 92 38 76 64 +33 6 78 35 16 90 https://team.inria.fr/epione/en/ -------------------------------

Hi Bruce, With the help of the latest snapshot solving the crash issue, I found the source of these large distortions. The loop closure that I am using is The are due to the limited numerical accuracy (float rather than double somewhere?) in the weighted least-squares for error compensation when we put very large standard deviations (in my case "sd length 400 m)". I had indeed shots for far away for triangulation, and since the length is estimated a posteriori from the map, I wanted to put a very high confidence interval on it. Getting down to a stddev of 50 m solves the problem. Thus this problem is different from the one we experienced in 2013. Xavier Le 10/09/2020 à 07:33, Bruce Mutton a écrit :

Xavier I did have a project that distorted part of a loop 400 m vertically too far downwards. Changing from Therion loop closure to Survex loop closure resolved the problem, and so I have retained that setting ever since. That may have been in 2013, or maybe earlier. On a few occasions since I have checked to see if that problem still manifested, but it did not. I never figured out why it did it for only a window in time/Therion versions. Bruce

-----Original Message----- From: Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> On Behalf Of Xavier Pennec Sent: Thursday, 10 September 2020 09:05 To: therion@speleo.sk Subject: Re: [Therion] Bug with uncertainty on fixed station on windows 10?

Well, on my side, my projects with multiple fixed points with uncertainty that were compiling last years are now generally crashing at compilation. However, since I changed computer, therion and survex version, it is difficult to single out the reason.

With no loop and several fixed points with uncertainty, it seems to crash systematically like in the example I posted. When it does not crash with multiple loops and multiple fixed points with uncertainty, it can either gives a .3d output that seems reasonable in aven, or it can displace one of the fixed points kilometres away, either in horizontal or vertical direction! Just fixing a point at 950 altitude can output a 3d file where the altitude is at -4000m.... A new way to explore abysses! I have just looked at the .3d result so far since I have not drawn all the maps yet in the cases where it compiles.

As soon as I manage to set up a mock-up example, I will post it to document this amazing behaviour.

Best

Xavier

Le 09/09/2020 à 22:34, Bruce Mutton a écrit :

...

I forgot to point out that most of my projects probably have multiple fixed stations with uncertainty parameters set. I don't think I have experienced any problems, at least in recent times and with recent versions of Therion. So your example is interesting. Bruce

_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

--

------------------------- Xavier Pennec Senior Research Scientist / Directeur de recherche Asclepios project-team, INRIA Sophia-Antipolis 2004 Route des Lucioles, BP93 F-06902 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex, France +33 4 92 38 76 64 +33 6 78 35 16 90 https://team.inria.fr/epione/en/ -------------------------------