Hello all, I have a question regarding surveying (and mapping) extremely mazy multi-level caves. There is a cave near my home that has never been mapped, I assume due to it's extremely mazy nature. I am considering taking it on as a project, however, I have no idea how to survey it. Do any of you have advice as to how to best manage such a survey? I imagine I will have to be extremely careful with how I create scraps in therion, as well. I can think of several places in the cave that have 5 or 6 passages all meeting in one small room. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks :-). Sincerely, Jonny Prouty
I'll write you later today, check the map of Cachtice cave - it is very complex cave too. http://cachtice.speleo.sk m. On 25.11.2006, at 17:56, Jonathan Prouty wrote:
Hello all, I have a question regarding surveying (and mapping) extremely mazy multi-level caves. There is a cave near my home that has never been mapped, I assume due to it's extremely mazy nature.
I am considering taking it on as a project, however, I have no idea how to survey it. Do any of you have advice as to how to best manage such a survey?
I imagine I will have to be extremely careful with how I create scraps in therion, as well. I can think of several places in the cave that have 5 or 6 passages all meeting in one small room.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks :-).
Sincerely, Jonny Prouty _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
Martin Sluka a écrit :
I'll write you later today, check the map of Cachtice cave - it is very complex cave too. http://cachtice.speleo.sk
Sorry, Martin, I have found no cave maps from this page... Do you have the full map of Cachtice cave available in therion ? Eric.
http://cachtice.speleo.sk/mapa_cj/template.html I may send you therion files too. M. On 26.11.2006, at 9:52, Eric Madelaine, INRIA wrote:
Martin Sluka a écrit :
I'll write you later today, check the map of Cachtice cave - it is very complex cave too. http://cachtice.speleo.sk
Sorry, Martin, I have found no cave maps from this page... Do you have the full map of Cachtice cave available in therion ?
Eric.
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
Hi Johny, there are several tricks for very mazy caves: 1. make short scraps 2. try not to join scraps where passages are joining 3. join named lines (with ID) 4. you may join not only ends of lines. You may use any line point of any object not only wall. If a passage begins among blocks you may join the beginning of passage walls to blocks line points so they will be transformed together. for example: join ms3_S1_2:32 js1_S1_2:3 where ms3_S1_2:32 means 32. line point from beginning of line ms3_S1_2 and js1_S1_2:3 means 3. line point from beginning of line js1_S1_2 5. use transparent pits, overhangs, steps, - check examples on wiki. line overhang -outline in -clip off line pit -close on -outline in -clip off 6. use invisible lines if necessary line border -visibility off -outline in 7. very important if you want to generate an atlas - you should organize the structure of maps according to atlas pages and under and over laying passages. for example: survey xxxxx .... .... .... map hlavny_tah.m js2_S1 mb1b_s1 mb1a_s1 mb2_s1 ms1_S1 ms2_S1 ms2_S2 break ms2_S3 break ms2_S4 ph1_S1 ph1_S2 ph1_S3 ph1_S4 ph1_S5 ph1_S6 ph1_S7 ph1_S8 js1_S1 ph3_S6 ph2_S1 preview above duhovy_dom.m preview above ph_vrchna_chodba.m preview above kralova_chodba.m preview below ph_spodne_chodby.m endmap map medzibrodie.m js4_S1 preview below duhovy_dom.m preview below hlavny_tah.m endmap map duhovy_dom.m js3_S1 preview below hlavny_tah.m preview above medzibrodie.m endmap map kralova_chodba.m ms3_S1 break ms3_S2 preview below hlavny_tah.m endmap map ph_vrchna_chodba.m ph3_S1 ph3_S2 ph4_S2 break ph4_S1 break ph4_S3 preview below hlavny_tah.m preview below ph_spodne_chodby.m endmap map ph_spodne_chodby.m ph3_S5 ph3_S3 break ph3_S4 ph4_S4 break ph4_S5 ph4_S6 break ph4_S7 ph2_S2 break ph2_S3 preview above ph_vrchna_chodba.m preview above hlavny_tah.m endmap map klisura_a -title "Great Canyon<br>Gryka e Madhe<br>Velika Klisura" medzibrodie.m duhovy_dom.m kralova_chodba.m ph_vrchna_chodba.m hlavny_tah.m ph_spodne_chodby.m endmap endsurvey Martin On 25.11.2006, at 17:56, Jonathan Prouty wrote:
Hello all, I have a question regarding surveying (and mapping) extremely mazy multi-level caves. There is a cave near my home that has never been mapped, I assume due to it's extremely mazy nature.
I am considering taking it on as a project, however, I have no idea how to survey it. Do any of you have advice as to how to best manage such a survey?
I imagine I will have to be extremely careful with how I create scraps in therion, as well. I can think of several places in the cave that have 5 or 6 passages all meeting in one small room.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks :-).
Sincerely, Jonny Prouty _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
On 25.11.2006, at 17:56, Jonathan Prouty wrote:
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I read the discussion on cavechat - one very important thing - make your sketches in a cave directly in the scale so you will be able to orientate in the system in any moment. Check the therion proctractor - very useful tool for this. There is much more easy to draw maps in therion from such in scale sketches. m.
On 25.11.2006, at 17:56, Jonathan Prouty wrote:
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
One more thing: usually you need to draw several subtypes of line wall - bedrock, blocks, presumed, etc. There is not the best way how to do it if you start with new line each time the subtype of wall line changes. Try to use to change subtype of wall as change of line point subtype instead. Keep the line wall in one piece if possible - the automatic joining of wall lines will work much better. Martin
To whom it may concern. Aren't there a whole bunch of Therion programmers in Prague whom I've never met? It seems I am washing up in Prague tonight (hopefully) and will be around until Tuesday. Can I meet + buy a beer for/talk cave surveying with anyone there in town? Yours, Julian T. http://freesteel.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Tunnel .
Hello all, I very much appreciate all of the advice that you have given on this project. I have already changed my plans a great bit as a result. I'm sure that the product will be much better and come around sooner because of this. One quick question: What do you think about quickly generating a polygon map using auriga, then going in and using that map to sketch on top of, then creating a *real* map in Therion? Are there any insurmountable obstacles introduced by this method that I'm not seeing (Other than doubling the amount of time spent in each passage....)? This suggestion violates a couple rules of good practice and introduces the very real prospect that the sketch may never be completed. The only reason I even mention it is because of the fact that the local cave rescue squad would greatly benefit from a decent map. There have been several rescues in the cave (local kids getting lost, mostly) that have been severely slowed down as a result of the rescuers having to blindly stumble around, missing the obvious shortcuts that would have made their movements in the cave much more efficient. Perhaps even a working polygon map might help, in the event a rescue happens before the final map is created. At any rate, just a thought. As far as the actual mapping goes, I would love to be able to report some progress, unfortunately, I can't. As it turns out, the cave is embroiled in a bit of local caver politics. One of the older cavers in my club has been working on surveying it for the last 10 years or so. Even though no work has been done on that project for at least 2 years, he is very much against the idea of "resurveying" the cave, even though that survey hasn't been finished, and most likely never will. I am planning on going ahead and surveying it, it has just been greatly slowed down because of this. What a pain :-(. Sincerely, Jonny Prouty On 12/1/06, Martin Sluka <martinsluka@mac.com> wrote:
On 25.11.2006, at 17:56, Jonathan Prouty wrote:
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
One more thing:
usually you need to draw several subtypes of line wall - bedrock, blocks, presumed, etc.
There is not the best way how to do it if you start with new line each time the subtype of wall line changes.
Try to use to change subtype of wall as change of line point subtype instead. Keep the line wall in one piece if possible - the automatic joining of wall lines will work much better.
Martin _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
Jonathan Prouty schrieb:
Hello all,
I very much appreciate all of the advice that you have given on this project. I have already changed my plans a great bit as a result. I'm sure that the product will be much better and come around sooner because of this.
One quick question: What do you think about quickly generating a polygon map using auriga, then going in and using that map to sketch on top of, then creating a *real* map in Therion? Are there any insurmountable obstacles introduced by this method that I'm not seeing (Other than doubling the amount of time spent in each passage....)?
This suggestion violates a couple rules of good practice and introduces the very real prospect that the sketch may never be completed. The only reason I even mention it is because of the fact that the local cave rescue squad would greatly benefit from a decent map. There have been several rescues in the cave (local kids getting lost, mostly) that have been severely slowed down as a result of the rescuers having to blindly stumble around, missing the obvious shortcuts that would have made their movements in the cave much more efficient.
Perhaps even a working polygon map might help, in the event a rescue happens before the final map is created. At any rate, just a thought.
As far as the actual mapping goes, I would love to be able to report some progress, unfortunately, I can't. As it turns out, the cave is embroiled in a bit of local caver politics. One of the older cavers in my club has been working on surveying it for the last 10 years or so. Even though no work has been done on that project for at least 2 years, he is very much against the idea of "resurveying" the cave, even though that survey hasn't been finished, and most likely never will.
I am planning on going ahead and surveying it, it has just been greatly slowed down because of this. What a pain :-(.
Sincerely, Jonny Prouty
Hello Jonathan, I would at least reccomend to draw the outline during the survey because it makes it much easier to find your survey points again. I don't know auriga, so that I can't tell you anything about it but you can also create polygon plots with therion. An example should be in the wiki, If you don't find it, please ask as I have that code somewhere on my computer. If it is from advantage to do the drawing afterwards depends also on your drawing skills. It is good for therion to have a drawing that is more or less in scale. An other advantage is that the other people involved in the survey don't have to wait until you have finished the perfect drawing. Regards Wolfgang
On 2.12.2006, at 16:19, Jonathan Prouty wrote:
Hello all,
I very much appreciate all of the advice that you have given on this project. I have already changed my plans a great bit as a result. I'm sure that the product will be much better and come around sooner because of this.
One quick question: What do you think about quickly generating a polygon map using auriga, then going in and using that map to sketch on top of, then creating a *real* map in Therion? Are there any insurmountable obstacles introduced by this method that I'm not seeing (Other than doubling the amount of time spent in each passage....)?
You may do it in the same way in therion (not in the cave on cheap comp) - check wiki. In the moment you have your surveying data in .th file and generate map using simple default thconfig you will receive the polygon map. If you add LRUD data and generate .xvi file you will receive polygon+rectangles in map editor as background image and you may simple add only passage contours and generate very fast the "first shot" map. If there are any older surveys and sketches you may use them in therion and add only new surveyed data. Martin
Very precious system for surveying of complicated systems use CUCC group in Austria - check http://cucc.survex.com/expo/smkridge/ 204/204.html for examples. Their system of evidence of unexplored continuations is very inspirational. Just to add it to therion :) Martin
participants (5)
-
Eric Madelaine, INRIA -
Jonathan Prouty -
Julian Todd -
Martin Sluka -
Wolfgang Zillig