General note and suggestions
After the last week or so I have come up with qiute a few small problems and interface improvements. Here they all are for discussiona and consideration. This is part of my reaction to Stacho asking about year ago for a suggested list of extra keystrokes. A couple of these have been mentioned before, but here is the whole list anyway. Whilst loading a new file in map editor it says 'noname0x.th2' in a slightly confusing manner. It should show nothin or the name of the files that is being loaded. Can't create a point if it happens to be where the yellow direction tick is (or the control handle of previous point). Makes it difficult to do small stuff like rocks. I think this is a bug. You can't move two points together (e.g if you have ended two lines at the same point but want to adjust them, you have to do them both separately). Not sure how the interface should work for this, but it would be an improvement. 'water-flow conjectural' does not show up in plans. I want to show this. It is very hard to tell that you have loaded the wrong thconfig file. Some sensibe error like 'cannot find foo' would help. e.g: My data is in subdir 'bluemoon' load thconfig from dir above (soundriver) load bmb1.th2 from bluemoon dir hit compile - gives 'error' but doesn't show what error. run 'therion' in the bluemoon dir and things are fine (of course). There used to be an entry: "It would be really useful if there was something showing the name of the current scrap", but after using it for best part of two weeks I noticed this was in the title bar! Should be in the tips/FAQ I think so people notice faster. It would be _really_ useful to be able to do graphical joins: click on something and say 'join this to foo'. Difficult to do between two .th2 files, but at least for joins within a .th2 file being able to do them graphically like areas would help a lot (especially if you have to name lines - same automatic naming as areas would help enormously). inserting line points happens _after_ the current point inserting file entries happens _before_ the current line inserting scrap happens at the start of the file this is confusing. inserting after the current position always would be good (then things appear in the file in the order you draw them, not reverse order Difficult to add several points to the end of a line (i.e. carry on a line I accidentally stopped). First new point happens at end but then next point happens one back from end, which is never what I want. Check to tell you you are entering line outside a scrap would be good. Splitting lines that are part of areas is tricky. Does label get removed from both halves of line? Need to be able to find areas and lines better (especially after splitting a line). e.g if I click on an item it is highlyighted, but if it is currently off-screen then there is no clue where it is. maybe double-clicking would move the selected item on-screen? Docs need explanation of 'scrap distortion' numbers. What do they mean? Mine are around 70% - is that as bad as it sounds? Debris rocks look daft on 1:1000 plans. Thye look OK on some of the 1:200 maps martinS showed me. This may be rectifiable by using the base-scale as well as scale options, but I haven't yet got both the rocks and the legend to look sensible. When you insert an area it is always 'water' not the last area you inserted. The line type gets defaulted to whatever you set the area to last time. When you start a line or area and don't add anything to it you end up with an empty entry in the file. It would be smart to tidy these up. What is difference between floor-step and pit? Button for 'invisible', indeed a list of available subtypes in general would be useful. I've found it very easy to mis-spell '-subtype invisible', and having a list would save you needing to know which ones were available. Why do newscraps go in at the top of the file, not bottom of file? This results in scraps being in reverse order in the file. I'd naturaly expect it to be the other way round. After creating the first scrap the cursor is left at a position such that if you enter any lines/points they end up outside a scrap. 0.3.3 keys needed: scroll up/down in side panel (pageup/down?) scroll up/down in file commands window (shift pageup/down?) Shortcut for insert area is needed _very badly_. having to switch between the 'insert area' and 'insert scrap' action is just not good enough as an interface. insert area ctrl-A insert scrap ctrl-S Shortcuts needed to select common types: wall rock-border rock-edge pit floor-step A very useful thing to be able to do would be right-clicking on an item on the map and selecting a point or line type. Making the point type selector taller so that you don't need to page up _twice_ to get from 'wall' to 'border'. some way to select a whole load of lines and move them to a new scrap. bugs: (present since at least 0.3.1 - still in 0.3.5) If entering a line then use ctrl-D to abandon it, one char disappears from current text field (eg pillar becomes illar, contour becomes ontour or cntour (depending on cursor position) prone to crashing - still present in 0.3.5. Need to test with tcltk recompiled without thread support. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
At 03:00 +0000 3.1.2005, Wookey wrote: *******************************************
It is very hard to tell that you have loaded the wrong thconfig file. Some sensibe error like 'cannot find foo' would help. My data is in subdir 'bluemoon' load thconfig from dir above (soundriver) load bmb1.th2 from bluemoon dir hit compile - gives 'error' but doesn't show what error. run 'therion' in the bluemoon dir and things are fine (of course).
You may give them different names - bluemoon.thconfig, soundriver.thconfig, etc. and press F3 (Compiler window) first and F9 after. It is not so clever, but ... Martin --
+++ Martin Sluka [05-01-03 11:49 +0100]:
At 03:00 +0000 3.1.2005, Wookey wrote: *******************************************
It is very hard to tell that you have loaded the wrong thconfig file. Some sensibe error like 'cannot find foo' would help. My data is in subdir 'bluemoon' load thconfig from dir above (soundriver) load bmb1.th2 from bluemoon dir hit compile - gives 'error' but doesn't show what error. run 'therion' in the bluemoon dir and things are fine (of course).
You may give them different names - bluemoon.thconfig, soundriver.thconfig, etc. and press F3 (Compiler window) first and F9 after. It is not so clever, but ...
Yes that is a work-around, but then I could not just run theroin in the directory and have it automatically pick up the config file - I would have to give an option. The real reason for pointing it out is that Therion does not give a useful error when you do this. It should say something like "Current dir <foo> cannot open <path>' ", so that you could work out that you opened the wrong file. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
At 16:14 +0000 3.1.2005, Wookey wrote: *******************************************
Yes that is a work-around, but then I could not just run theroin in the directory and have it automatically pick up the config file - I would have to give an option.
You are right, but it is only problem of first run. If the correct config file is loaded already, F9 works. BTW - in this way you may have several xxxx.thconfig files in one directory with different parameters and switch easy among them. Martin --
Wookey, if the file thconfig isn't in actual directory and you press F9 first time (no any config file in F3 window), xtherion will ask you for correct file. So you may check what you are doing. MartinS At 03:00 +0000 3.1.2005, Wookey wrote: *******************************************
It is very hard to tell that you have loaded the wrong thconfig file. Some sensibe error like 'cannot find foo' would help. My data is in subdir 'bluemoon' load thconfig from dir above (soundriver) load bmb1.th2 from bluemoon dir hit compile - gives 'error' but doesn't show what error. run 'therion' in the bluemoon dir and things are fine (of course).
You may give them different names - bluemoon.thconfig, soundriver.thconfig, etc. and press F3 (Compiler window) first and F9 after. It is not so clever, but ... Martin --
Whilst loading a new file in map editor it says 'noname0x.th2' in a slightly confusing manner. It should show nothin or the name of the files that is being loaded.
No problem.
Can't create a point if it happens to be where the yellow direction tick is (or the control handle of previous point). Makes it difficult to do small stuff like rocks. I think this is a bug.
Yes, it is a bug.
You can't move two points together (e.g if you have ended two lines at the same point but want to adjust them, you have to do them both separately). Not sure how the interface should work for this, but it would be an improvement.
It would be nice (I am having also such problems), but I have no idea how to do it.
'water-flow conjectural' does not show up in plans. I want to show this.
I have to check this.
It is very hard to tell that you have loaded the wrong thconfig file. Some sensibe error like 'cannot find foo' would help. e.g: My data is in subdir 'bluemoon' load thconfig from dir above (soundriver) load bmb1.th2 from bluemoon dir hit compile - gives 'error' but doesn't show what error. run 'therion' in the bluemoon dir and things are fine (of course).
This sounds strange. Therion is allways started from dir, at which current thconfig file is located. You may not compile, unless some config-file is loaded (or you can? I have to check). In any case, the compilation process needs to be changed. I am preparing new arrangement, but it will take some time.
It would be _really_ useful to be able to do graphical joins: click on something and say 'join this to foo'. Difficult to do between two .th2 files, but at least for joins within a .th2 file being able to do them graphically like areas would help a lot (especially if you have to name lines - same automatic naming as areas would help enormously).
OK, I will put it in the TODO. If you have to join scraps manually (line by line), it is real pain - I agree.
inserting line points happens _after_ the current point inserting file entries happens _before_ the current line
This I think is natural. If you draw something, it should overlap things that were drawn previously. Example: firstly you draw rock-border and than rock-edge.
inserting scrap happens at the start of the file this is confusing.
OK, I can change it that new scraps will be inserted before current scrap.
inserting after the current position always would be good (then things appear in the file in the order you draw them, not reverse order
That's true, but then you should draw rock-borders/edges in reversed order.
Difficult to add several points to the end of a line (i.e. carry on a line I accidentally stopped). First new point happens at end but then next point happens one back from end, which is never what I want.
Well, you just need to click manually on the "end of line" item in the line point list (or just hit Escape to jump there :) . Than you can continue inserting the line.
Check to tell you you are entering line outside a scrap would be good.
OK, but I hate error windows, I have to click OK every time. Would a beep be enought?
Splitting lines that are part of areas is tricky. Does label get removed from both halves of line?
Yes. You need to copy the label and paste it into part of line you wish to.
Need to be able to find areas and lines better (especially after splitting a line). e.g if I click on an item it is highlyighted, but if it is currently off-screen then there is no clue where it is. maybe double-clicking would move the selected item on-screen?
This is only the problem of lines. OK - if line will be selected, last point of line will be highlighted and centered on the screen. You are right.
Docs need explanation of 'scrap distortion' numbers. What do they mean? Mine are around 70% - is that as bad as it sounds?
OK, we should probably add something like relative distortion. This is absolute distortion. It means, that there exists two points in a scrap, which distance was changed by 70% in adjustment process. It may be bad, but it must not be bad. We have to find some different measure of distortion, but no idea about it.
Debris rocks look daft on 1:1000 plans. Thye look OK on some of the 1:200 maps martinS showed me. This may be rectifiable by using the base-scale as well as scale options, but I haven't yet got both the rocks and the legend to look sensible.
This is a problem of map symbol metapost definition. It will certainly be improved.
When you insert an area it is always 'water' not the last area you inserted. The line type gets defaulted to whatever you set the area to last time.
This is a bug.
When you start a line or area and don't add anything to it you end up with an empty entry in the file. It would be smart to tidy these up.
OK, I can do it when saving the file.
What is difference between floor-step and pit?
I think, that pit is big floor-step, which can not be passed without equipement (rope, ladder).
Button for 'invisible', indeed a list of available subtypes in general would be useful. I've found it very easy to mis-spell '-subtype invisible', and having a list would save you needing to know which ones were available.
OK, but again - it will take some time.
Why do newscraps go in at the top of the file, not bottom of file? This results in scraps being in reverse order in the file. I'd naturaly expect it to be the other way round.
No problem. No idea, why is it so.
After creating the first scrap the cursor is left at a position such that if you enter any lines/points they end up outside a scrap.
This should not be true in the newest version :) But I will check it.
0.3.3
keys needed: scroll up/down in side panel (pageup/down?) scroll up/down in file commands window (shift pageup/down?)
OK
Shortcut for insert area is needed _very badly_. having to switch between the 'insert area' and 'insert scrap' action is just not good enough as an interface. insert area ctrl-A insert scrap ctrl-S
I usually use Edit->Insert->Area/Scrap. Alt-E+I+A on Windows. But I will add some shortcats.
Shortcuts needed to select common types: wall rock-border rock-edge pit floor-step
That's true.
A very useful thing to be able to do would be right-clicking on an item on the map and selecting a point or line type.
Making the point type selector taller so that you don't need to page up _twice_ to get from 'wall' to 'border'.
No problem.
some way to select a whole load of lines and move them to a new scrap.
This would need some interface. I will think about it.
(present since at least 0.3.1 - still in 0.3.5) If entering a line then use ctrl-D to abandon it, one char disappears from current text field (eg pillar becomes illar, contour becomes ontour or cntour (depending on cursor position)
This doeas not happen on Win/Mac. I have to check on my Linux. It seems, that text control has mapped "Ctrl+D" to backspace. I can try to remove it.
prone to crashing - still present in 0.3.5. Need to test with tcltk recompiled without thread support.
OK, it is a lot of things, but some of them are easy to implement. I will update TODO list and we will see. Thanks for your feedback, S.
+++ Stacho Mudrak [05-01-10 09:28 +0100]:
It is very hard to tell that you have loaded the wrong thconfig file. Some sensibe error like 'cannot find foo' would help. e.g: My data is in subdir 'bluemoon' load thconfig from dir above (soundriver) load bmb1.th2 from bluemoon dir hit compile - gives 'error' but doesn't show what error. run 'therion' in the bluemoon dir and things are fine (of course).
This sounds strange. Therion is allways started from dir, at which current thconfig file is located. You may not compile, unless some config-file is loaded (or you can? I have to check).
Ah, OK. So I thought the problem was that it couldn't find file, but what you are saying is that the .th2 files loaded is irrelevant, and doing 'compile' just runs wahtever the thconfig file says? Yes, at that time the soundriver thconfig file probably did not build. OK, so it works, and I revise my bug report to say we need to make clear that 'compile' does whatever the thconfig file does, and _does_not_ compile the file loaded in the map-editor (if it is not mentioned). This is a bit of a problem if you loaded the wrong thconfig file (as I did above), but I'm not sure what should be done about it. Maybe a warning about 'unused file in map editor - is that what you wanted?'?
In any case, the compilation process needs to be changed. I am preparing new arrangement, but it will take some time.
It does? I don't have a particular problem with it at the moment.
inserting line points happens _after_ the current point inserting file entries happens _before_ the current line
This I think is natural. If you draw something, it should overlap things that were drawn previously. Example: firstly you draw rock-border and than rock-edge.
I hadn't realised this was necessary. I agree it is natural to draw things so that the last-drawn things covers those drawn before. I think it would also be natural that the last thing in the file was drawn last, but it seems that part is the other way round, so we write the file 'backwards' too. :-) It seems to me that this is exposing therion internals in the interface more than is necessary. Presumably it could be done so that each new item went on the end of the list and the items were rendered so that the last one ended up 'on top'? However this is perhaps a very large change in the internals with only a small gain for users. I can live with it, but I do think it adds to the things that make therion confusing to use. But if we just explain about the ordering (especially for rocks - what else does it affect?), that will be enough to let people use it.
inserting scrap happens at the start of the file this is confusing.
OK, I can change it that new scraps will be inserted before current scrap.
after :-)
Check to tell you you are entering line outside a scrap would be good.
OK, but I hate error windows, I have to click OK every time. Would a beep be enought?
A beep and a message in the status area (where it says 'select object', 'drawing line', etc).
Splitting lines that are part of areas is tricky. Does label get removed
from both halves of line?
Yes. You need to copy the label and paste it into part of line you wish to.
In the long term I think therion should try to keep the label on the 'correct' half of the line - it should be able to determine that most of the time, but I can see that this is tricky.
What is difference between floor-step and pit?
I think, that pit is big floor-step, which can not be passed without equipement (rope, ladder).
OK - but they look exactly the same in the UIS symbol set. I actually want to use the 'border' type line for floor-step. I will have to try to fine-tune my output,one thing I have not yet messed with.
After creating the first scrap the cursor is left at a position such that if you enter any lines/points they end up outside a scrap.
This should not be true in the newest version :) But I will check it.
I think you are right and this is fixed in 0.3.5
I usually use Edit->Insert->Area/Scrap. Alt-E+I+A on Windows. But I will add some shortcats.
I had not noticed that - I got used to esing entirely the right-hand pane interface. That is easier.
OK, it is a lot of things, but some of them are easy to implement. I will update TODO list and we will see.
Of course I am not expecting most of these to happen immediately :-) But it is important to record the things that annoy me, before I get used to them and forget that they are a problem when starting out. I'm very happy to provide feedback. Despite all my complaining, I think therion is very good, or at least will be good one day when it is a bit more finished. :-) The biggest problem at the moment is error feedback from metafont-level problems, as disucussed with martinB. That is what keeps getting me stuck so I have to ask for help. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
Wookey wrote:
Ah, OK. So I thought the problem was that it couldn't find file, but what you are saying is that the .th2 files loaded is irrelevant, and doing 'compile' just runs wahtever the thconfig file says?
Exactly.
the file loaded in the map-editor (if it is not mentioned). This is a bit of a problem if you loaded the wrong thconfig file (as I did above), but I'm not sure what should be done about it. Maybe a warning about 'unused file in map editor - is that what you wanted?'?
May be. In any case, if you know what happens, than it is not so bad error.
In any case, the compilation process needs to be changed. I am preparing new arrangement, but it will take some time.
It does? I don't have a particular problem with it at the moment.
OK, I would like to have editor of configuration files in the therion text editor (I think this is more correct). I have also added checking of time-stamps in text and map editor (to avoid problems of using external editors), but I was not able to do it in compiler (this text editor is not standard). But I am only thinking about it, I am working on different things.
inserting line points happens _after_ the current point inserting file entries happens _before_ the current line
However this is perhaps a very large change in the internals with only a small gain for users. I can live with it, but I do think it adds to the things that make therion confusing to use.
OK, in the 0.3.5 version, symbols should never be inserted outside of scrap just by mistake. With all symbols with exception of rock-border and edges (and stations in extended-elevation), you do not need to take care of their order. So probably users will not have huge problems in the future.
But if we just explain about the ordering (especially for rocks - what else does it affect?), that will be enough to let people use it.
I think also. Somebody should write it down to tips and tricks :)
OK, I can change it that new scraps will be inserted before current scrap.
after :-)
OK after or if it will be too difficult, at the end of file.
Check to tell you you are entering line outside a scrap would be good.
OK, but I hate error windows, I have to click OK every time. Would a beep be enought?
A beep and a message in the status area (where it says 'select object', 'drawing line', etc).
OK
OK - but they look exactly the same in the UIS symbol set. I actually want to use the 'border' type line for floor-step. I will have to try to fine-tune my output,one thing I have not yet messed with.
try following two lines in your layout: code metapost let l_floorstep = l_border_visible_SKBB;
But it is important to record the things that annoy me, before I get used to them and forget that they are a problem when starting out.
Yes. I will translate TODO.S file into english a little bit :) .
I'm very happy to provide feedback. Despite all my complaining, I think therion is very good, or at least will be good one day when it is a bit more finished. :-)
Thanks, S.
+++ Stacho Mudrak [05-01-10 14:21 +0100]:
Wookey wrote:
May be. In any case, if you know what happens, than it is not so bad error.
This is true of a number of things in Therion :-)
In any case, the compilation process needs to be changed. I am preparing new arrangement, but it will take some time.
It does? I don't have a particular problem with it at the moment.
OK, I would like to have editor of configuration files in the therion text editor (I think this is more correct).
OK, yes I see. I agree.
I have also added checking of time-stamps in text and map editor (to avoid problems of using external editors),
great (I have been careful recently and have not accidentally wasted hours of work for a while :-)
OK, I can change it that new scraps will be inserted before current scrap.
after :-)
OK after or if it will be too difficult, at the end of file.
Oh I see. I thought you had just made a typo above, but you were thinking of adding a new scrap immediately before the current scrap. That is more-or less what currently happens, although I agree, not exactly the same. My thought was that each one should go at the end of the file, as the 'natural way of doing things'. Although you could argue that if each linegoes in at the beginning of the list, then each scrap should also go in at the beginning of the list, for consistency? (I'd like them both to go on the end of the list, ecause that is how 'most things' normally work.)
OK - but they look exactly the same in the UIS symbol set. I actually want to use the 'border' type line for floor-step. I will have to try to fine-tune my output,one thing I have not yet messed with.
try following two lines in your layout:
code metapost let l_floorstep = l_border_visible_SKBB;
aha - thanx. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
participants (3)
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Martin Sluka -
Stacho Mudrak -
Wookey