Hi Bruce - The reason for 1m x 0.6m paper (actually 3 feet by 2 feet) is because that is the size of the frame that the landowner wishes to display the map in. It is also the largest size we can get printed for any reasonable cost. I've been using 1:200 for this map. Scales of 1:500 and higher make the fills on the map too sparse. A clay area might have one clay symbol in it. Scales below 1:200 make the fills too dense. -- Bill Gee On Thursday, November 9, 2017 1:02:00 PM CST Bruce Mutton via Therion wrote:

Hi Bill

Sounds like you need to print on a larger piece of paper. 1m x 0.6m is quite modest. I presume you are not printing your pdf file out at the full size that Therion generated it at.

I have not had any legend size issues with a 30km cave, although I must admit that I do with very small caves, where the legend ends up much bigger than the cave itself!

If you want to fit your cave to paper of a particular size, then change the scale. I rarely use anything less than 'scale 1 1000' for a cave longer than 1km.

To be precise about fitting the cave to a particular paper size, then 'export atlas' will give a better result than 'export map', although of course atlas do give quite a different end product, and take a bit more care and attention to set up well.

Bruce

From: Therion [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bill Gee via Therion Sent: Friday, 10 November 2017 2:45 AM To: Therion Mail List <therion@speleo.sk> Cc: Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> Subject: [Therion] Increase size of legend

Hello everyone -

I need to make the legend on a map larger. The cave has grown to nearly 3km of passage, and even when printed on 60cm x 100cm paper the legend is too smal to read. Even a magnifying glass does not help!

. snipped.

Thanks!

Hi Bruce - There is much to think about here, and also with Torsten's message. I have enough to keep me busy for several days! :-) Regarding area fills vs. points ... I take the opposite view of you. I prefer area fills. With an area fill I can completely control the boundaries of the symbol. Points do not allow that. I had several cases where clay floor and flowstone were drawn as overlapping even though that was not the case in the cave. The downside to area fills is, as you note, the symbol density at various map scales. Speaking of scale - If I were to set the map scale based on the bounding box of the cave, then it would be somewhere around 1:1200. At that scale much detail gets lost when you zoom in on the PDF. Maybe the thing to do is create TWO maps. One would be scaled for printing as the landowner wants and the other would be scaled for viewing in a PDF, particularly when zoomed in. Is that a common practice? -- Bill Gee On Friday, November 10, 2017 1:18:45 AM CST Bruce Mutton via Therion wrote:

Hi Bill If I were in your situation (as I think I have been from time to time), then I would opt for targeting an exported map that was close to the 3'x2' paper size when printed at full size. I would do this by using 'scale 1 xxx' where xxx is one of the preferred scales that gives you close to the right paper size. That is assuming the full size legend, north arrow, header text are more or less the right size for your needs, or only need minor tweaks.

Then if some symbols are not quite right, I would limit my code customisation to only those symbols. Judging by examples you have posted on the wiki, you are pretty good at this. Examples in https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/metapost#cave_symbol_size_and_density_exampl es provide some patterns to guide changes in fill density, and the discussion near the top of the page about variables u, v and w might be helpful.

As Felix mentioned, you can tweak text and symbol size with 'base-scale 1 yyy', if you want to optimise for printing larger or smaller than full size.

Seems to me that this approach is likely to be the path of least resistance, requiring only changes to your layouts and some metapost. Optimising standard output elements for printing at the 'wrong size' just seems counter productive to me.

I should admit however that I tend to avoid using fills like clay, sand, debris, blocks, and rather use points. That avoids the fill density issues you describe, but I appreciate if you already have a large investment in area fills your approach may be tempting.

Bruce

-----Original Message----- From: Therion [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bill Gee via Therion Sent: Friday, 10 November 2017 8:37 AM To: List for Therion users <therion@speleo.sk> Cc: Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> Subject: Re: [Therion] Increase size of legend

Hi Bruce -

The reason for 1m x 0.6m paper (actually 3 feet by 2 feet) is because that is the size of the frame that the landowner wishes to display the map in. It is also the largest size we can get printed for any reasonable cost.

I've been using 1:200 for this map. Scales of 1:500 and higher make the fills on the map too sparse. A clay area might have one clay symbol in it. Scales below 1:200 make the fills too dense.

-- Bill Gee

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 1:02:00 PM CST Bruce Mutton via Therion wrote:

...

Hi Bill

Sounds like you need to print on a larger piece of paper. 1m x 0.6m is quite modest. I presume you are not printing your pdf file out at the full size that Therion generated it at.

I have not had any legend size issues with a 30km cave, although I must admit that I do with very small caves, where the legend ends up much bigger than the cave itself!

If you want to fit your cave to paper of a particular size, then change the scale. I rarely use anything less than 'scale 1 1000' for a cave longer than 1km.

To be precise about fitting the cave to a particular paper size, then 'export atlas' will give a better result than 'export map', although of course atlas do give quite a different end product, and take a bit more care and attention to set up well.

Bruce

From: Therion [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bill Gee via Therion Sent: Friday, 10 November 2017 2:45 AM To: Therion Mail List <therion@speleo.sk> Cc: Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> Subject: [Therion] Increase size of legend

Hello everyone -

I need to make the legend on a map larger. The cave has grown to nearly 3km of passage, and even when printed on 60cm x 100cm paper the legend is too smal to read. Even a magnifying glass does not help!

. snipped.

Thanks!

_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Hello everyone - I have managed to get what I want, though I do not completely understand why it works. Thanks to Bruce and Torsten for valuable pointers. The attached file is my thconfig with modifications for the large legend. The layout for "mainmapprint" contains the MetaPost and TeX code. In truth, I think the main reason I am getting the large legend now is because I changed the scale to 1:800. When I looked at the relation between the desired size of printout and the bounding box of the cave, I get a ratio in the range of 1:800. It is actually 1:851 for north-south and 1:705 for east- west, so 1:800 seems a reasonable middle ground. I tried various "base-scale" settings but could not see any visible change. It was effectively a null setting. I discovered some other issues while testing. First, the settings for "debug station-names" and "symbol-show group centerline" are apparently global. If they are set in any layout-endlayout section, then they are set for all subsequent layouts. Is that how they should behave? Second - I want to add the current date and Therion version to the legend. The TeX code includes \the\currentdate and \the\thversion. Both items do show up on the legend, just below the symbol table. However, they totally ignore the {\size[]} option. Is that option implemented for these TeX macros? It does not produce any errors when compiling the map. It also does not change anything! Another null setting ... The Therion Book on page 69 lists all of the TeX macros that can be used on map layouts. However, it says NOTHING about what options and parameters are implemented. The sample code in the Therion Book, on the Wiki and in the files Torsten sent me show some of these macros with options. Is there a place where ALL options and parameters of ALL macros are documented? Thanks! -- Bill Gee On Friday, November 10, 2017 1:18:45 AM CST Bruce Mutton via Therion wrote:

Hi Bill If I were in your situation (as I think I have been from time to time), then I would opt for targeting an exported map that was close to the 3'x2' paper size when printed at full size. I would do this by using 'scale 1 xxx' where xxx is one of the preferred scales that gives you close to the right paper size. That is assuming the full size legend, north arrow, header text are more or less the right size for your needs, or only need minor tweaks.

Then if some symbols are not quite right, I would limit my code customisation to only those symbols. Judging by examples you have posted on the wiki, you are pretty good at this. Examples in https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/metapost#cave_symbol_size_and_density_exampl es provide some patterns to guide changes in fill density, and the discussion near the top of the page about variables u, v and w might be helpful.

As Felix mentioned, you can tweak text and symbol size with 'base-scale 1 yyy', if you want to optimise for printing larger or smaller than full size.

Seems to me that this approach is likely to be the path of least resistance, requiring only changes to your layouts and some metapost. Optimising standard output elements for printing at the 'wrong size' just seems counter productive to me.

I should admit however that I tend to avoid using fills like clay, sand, debris, blocks, and rather use points. That avoids the fill density issues you describe, but I appreciate if you already have a large investment in area fills your approach may be tempting.

Bruce

-----Original Message----- From: Therion [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bill Gee via Therion Sent: Friday, 10 November 2017 8:37 AM To: List for Therion users <therion@speleo.sk> Cc: Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> Subject: Re: [Therion] Increase size of legend

Hi Bruce -

The reason for 1m x 0.6m paper (actually 3 feet by 2 feet) is because that is the size of the frame that the landowner wishes to display the map in. It is also the largest size we can get printed for any reasonable cost.

I've been using 1:200 for this map. Scales of 1:500 and higher make the fills on the map too sparse. A clay area might have one clay symbol in it. Scales below 1:200 make the fills too dense.

-- Bill Gee

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 1:02:00 PM CST Bruce Mutton via Therion wrote:

...

Hi Bill

Sounds like you need to print on a larger piece of paper. 1m x 0.6m is quite modest. I presume you are not printing your pdf file out at the full size that Therion generated it at.

I have not had any legend size issues with a 30km cave, although I must admit that I do with very small caves, where the legend ends up much bigger than the cave itself!

If you want to fit your cave to paper of a particular size, then change the scale. I rarely use anything less than 'scale 1 1000' for a cave longer than 1km.

To be precise about fitting the cave to a particular paper size, then 'export atlas' will give a better result than 'export map', although of course atlas do give quite a different end product, and take a bit more care and attention to set up well.

Bruce

From: Therion [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bill Gee via Therion Sent: Friday, 10 November 2017 2:45 AM To: Therion Mail List <therion@speleo.sk> Cc: Bill Gee <bgee@campercaver.net> Subject: [Therion] Increase size of legend

Hello everyone -

I need to make the legend on a map larger. The cave has grown to nearly 3km of passage, and even when printed on 60cm x 100cm paper the legend is too smal to read. Even a magnifying glass does not help!

. snipped.

Thanks!

_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Bill

I have managed to get what I want, though I do not completely understand why it works. :) sometimes my experience as well.

I tried various "base-scale" settings but could not see any visible change. It was effectively a null setting. Even when base-scale value is 2x or 0.5x the scale value?

I discovered some other issues while testing. First, the settings for "debug station-names" and "symbol-show group centerline" are apparently global. If they are set in any layout-endlayout section, then they are set for all subsequent layouts. Is that how they should behave? No they should not work that way, but this type of issue does seem familiar. I seem to recall I had this kind of thing happen some years and some versions ago. It is possible that it was related to having multiple copies of the same file open in different instances of Therion, or to some bug or the possibility I was using some feature in an unintended way. Often errors in one place don't show up until several processing steps later, often in another 'input' file.

The TeX code includes \the\currentdate and \the\thversion. Both items do show up on the legend, just below the symbol table. However, they totally ignore the {\size[]} option. Is that option implemented for these TeX macros? It does not produce any errors when compiling the map. It also does not change anything! \def\txtsize{16} % Define the default text size \legendtextsize={\size[\txtsize]} \the\currentdate={\size[30]} \the\thversion={\size[\txtsize]}

You are outside my area of competence here. Your code is clean and readable, but it is different to what I have been using, not so readable, which includes tests that the variables exist and specifies the size and style of the text at the start of the line that the variable is called up in, as follows. Maybe including \legendtextsize\ on the same line as \the\thversion will improve the behaviour. \newtoks\thversiontitleA \thversiontitleA={Compiled} \newtoks\thversiontitleB \thversiontitleB={Therion } \newtoks\datetitle \datetitle={on } \edef\tmp{\the\thversion} \ifx\tmp\empty \else %only write version and date if version is not emplty {\the\legendtextsize\si\the\thversiontitleA: \ss\the\thversiontitleB \ss\the\thversion} {\the\legendtextsize\ss\the\datetitle \ss\the\currentdate\par} \fi

Is there a place where ALL TeX macro options and parameters of ALL macros are documented? Not quite sure what you are asking beyond what is listed as you describe. Simple answer is probably no. If you want everything, then obtaining it is described here https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/metapost#how_to_get_therions_metapost_code_an d_tex_code Perhaps you could start a list on the wiki, then others can build on it with whatever knowledge they have.

Bruce

\ss is indeed not a standard tex or latex macro, It is defined by Therion in thfonts.cxx as a font type face switch (Therion book p.63): * \rm, \it, \bf, \ss, \si for type face switching. In the lengend formatting, \si seems to put in italic, and \ss to come back to straight. Xavier Le 16-Nov-17 à 15:28, Bill Gee via Therion a écrit :

Hi Bruce -

I have done some more work on this, and I have made progress. As you and I have both noted :-) I do not completely understand why it works. There are some deep dark secrets in TeX! I have ordered a copy of Knuth's original book on TeX.

The attached file is the latest version of my thconfig file.

The magic lines that make the date and Therion version into larger fonts are 98-99 and 156-157. I used the "-d" option when compiling, then looked at the resulting file called "data.tex". It has quite a few lines using the \ss macro. I adapted those lines and was pleased to find that it works.

The mystery, of course, is what exactly is the \ss macro doing? I did some Google searches but the only pages I found refer to the special German character ß which is obviously not how it is being used here.

I have not messed with the base-scale settings any further. I also have not chased the problem where "debug station-names" leaks from one layout section to another. Martin produced a test case that contradicts my experience. He is using a different version of Therion than I am. More investigation is needed.

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--

------------------------- Xavier Pennec Senior Research Scientist / Directeur de recherche Asclepios project-team, INRIA Sophia-Antipolis 2004 Route des Lucioles, BP93 F-06902 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex, France +33 4 92 38 76 64 +33 6 78 35 16 90 http://www-sop.inria.fr/asclepios/ -------------------------------

For standard Computer Modern fonts. In recent TeX one may use mostly any fontface. M.S. Odesláno z iPhonu 16. 11. 2017 v 19:41, Bruce Mutton via Therion <therion@speleo.sk>:

Bill

...

The mystery, of course, is what exactly is the \ss macro doing? I did some Google searches but the only pages I found refer to the special German character ß which is obviously not how it is being used here.

As Xavier says, I suspect it is...

\ss = sans serif, similar to the 'text' statement font switches on page 26 of the Therion Book.

But to test that one should try...

\rm \it \bf and \si as well

The attached files show what difference they make (bottom righthand side of drawing) when used in a .th2 file in a point label statement. My suspicion is they do the same in TeX statements.

Bruce <Map Illustration Custom Scale1000 Text Sizes.pdf> _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Hi Torsten - Thanks! There is enough here to keep me busy for several days. I need to figure out how to integrate all this code into my thconfig, then fiddle with the constants to get it to come out right. -- Bill Gee On Friday, November 10, 2017 1:46:55 AM CST Torsten Schnitter via Therion wrote:

Hi Bill

I have done that. Somewhat complicated but it works (for me). Following just as an example to get an idea about it. I also seperated scalebar, northarrow, legendcontent and legendsymbols from each other to place them at different positions.

You can input the attached .th files in your config file using: input .\filename.th (I put the code into files to use it with different caves. But you also can put the sourcecode directly into your config file)

within layout command use following: - copy legendcontent (for input of new code for legendcontent into the layout definition) - copy legendsymbols (for input of new code for legendsymbols into the layout definition) - copy scalebar (for input of new code for scalebar into the layout definition) - copy northarrow_new (for input of new code for northarrow into the layout definition) - scale and base-scale (for sizing the map and size of symbols inside map) - legend-width xx cm (to size the width of legendsymbols-table) - legend-columns x (number of rows of legend-symbols)

also within layout: code metapost % scale of legend symbols tmpscale:=2.0; % scale of north arrow tmpscalenarrow:=2.5; % scale of scalebar tmpscalebar:=2.0; endcode

code tex-map % parameter legendcontent \def\thsizexl{60} % size of cave name in map \def\thsizel{48} % size of comment in map \def\thsizem{36} % size of text in map % parameter legend symbols \def\legendsymbolswidth1{60 cm} % width of legendcontent \legendtextsectionsize={\size[60]} % text size of legend symbols header \legendtextsize={\size[48]} % text size of legend symbols % map layout \def\maplayout{ \legendbox{x}{y}{NW}{\the\legendcontent} % map header \legendbox{x}{y}{NW}{\legendsymbols} % legend symbols \legendbox{x}{y}{NW}{\northarrow} % north arrow \legendbox{x}{y}{NW}{\hsize=10 cm\centerline\scalebar} % scalebar endcode

Some finetuning: within the file legendsymbols.th is a line % personal adjustments \advance\legendsymbolht by -4pt % align legendsymboltext from top of legendsymbolbox with adjusting the number you can adjust the text from each legendsymbol to the symbolbox.

hth, Torsten

...

Bill Gee via Therion <therion@speleo.sk> hat am 9. November 2017 um 14:45 geschrieben:

Hello everyone -

I need to make the legend on a map larger. The cave has grown to nearly 3km of passage, and even when printed on 60cm x 100cm paper the legend is too smal to read. Even a magnifying glass does not help!

I referred to a thread from about two years ago which discusses this subject. Henry Bennett provided a combination of MetaPost and TeX code that is supposed to make the legend larger. It works ... Sort of! Much is left out.

Here is the code I have in the layout section of my thconfig file:

# Change the size of the legend code metapost def draw_legend_box = %make the objects in the legend boxes bigger currentpicture := currentpicture scaled 5.0; clip currentpicture to unitsquare scaled 10u; drawoptions(); pickup PenB; draw unitsquare scaled 10u ; enddef;

%clear the background of the larger legend boxes def clean_legend_box = unfill unitsquare scaled 10u; enddef;

%change the value of inscale to fill the legend boxes def inscale = xscaled legend_scale yscaled (0.6*legend_scale) %xscaled legend_scale yscaled legend_scale enddef; endcode

code tex-map \def\maplayout{ \legendbox{3}{65}{W}{ \legendwidth 80 cm \legendtextsize={\size[74]} \hsize=\legendwidth \northarrow\bigskip \the\cavename \the\comment \input th_legend } } endcode

The legend that results from this is about the right size. However, only the symbol table is enlarged. The north arrow is still too small and everything else that is supposed to be in the legend is missing. The attached screen shot shows what I get.

The Therion Book has a section describing the TeX macros that can be used. It looks like the documentation is not complete. Some of the macros are shown with options and parameters, but not all. There are samples on the Wiki that show additional options. Is there a document that describes ALL of the options and parameters for the TeX macros?

How are the parameters in the MetaPost section of the code related? Looking at the legend I get, I see that the boxes enclosing each symbol are about the right size but the symbols drawn in them are (in some cases) too small. Look at the symbols for pillar and stalagmite, for example. Others, like the pendant (a user-defined symbol) are too large. Which of the MetaPost lines control that?

Does anyone have suggestions about what I am missing?

If anyone wants to see the full map, let me know. It is nearly 3mb as a PDF, so I don't want to send it to the entire group. Thanks!

-- Bill Gee

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