Hey guys, How do I enter survey data made without a clinometer. I just thought entering data like dive data would work but apparently diving only takes place under water in Therion.... It doesn't matter whether I enter fromdepth todepth data negative or positive, it doesn't matter if I add calibrate depth 0 -1 before the data.... the following line just goes down where it should be going up: So this: data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down r112 h1 7.00 10.00 0.00 5.00 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00 Produces the same results as this: data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down calibrate depth 0 -1 r112 h1 7.00 10.00 0.00 5.00 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00 And the same results as this: data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down r112 h1 7.00 10.00 0.00 -5.00 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00 Where it should be something somewhat comparable to this: data normal from to length compass clino 0 1 5.53 5.5 24.5 I looked at various manuals and examples, but they all assume you have a disto or some other clinometer. What extremely simple point am I too moronic to understand here? Thanks! Anton
Hi Anton When I’ve had to do that in the past, I just entered “0” for the clino. It’s the same effect I think as what you are asking of Therion, ie to default clino to zero. Best regards Ben Sent from my iPhone
On 14 Jul 2020, at 17:34, Anton van Rosmalen <A.M.vanRosmalen@gmx.net> wrote:
Hey guys,
How do I enter survey data made without a clinometer. I just thought entering data like dive data would work but apparently diving only takes place under water in Therion....
It doesn't matter whether I enter fromdepth todepth data negative or positive, it doesn't matter if I add calibrate depth 0 -1 before the data.... the following line just goes down where it should be going up:
So this:
data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down
r112 h1 7.00 10.00 0.00 5.00 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00
Produces the same results as this:
data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down
calibrate depth 0 -1
r112 h1 7.00 10.00 0.00 5.00 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00
And the same results as this:
data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down
r112 h1 7.00 10.00 0.00 -5.00 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00
Where it should be something somewhat comparable to this:
data normal from to length compass clino 0 1 5.53 5.5 24.5
I looked at various manuals and examples, but they all assume you have a disto or some other clinometer.
What extremely simple point am I too moronic to understand here?
Thanks!
Anton _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
On 2020-07-14 18:28 +0200, Anton van Rosmalen wrote:
Hey guys,
How do I enter survey data made without a clinometer.
I'm not sure about therion, but as it uses survex the same rules usually apply. In survex you just specify that there are no clino readings, *data normal from to tape compass 1 2 3 160 2 3 3 143 3 4 3 180 4 5 3 165 or omit them with a '-' (the default 'OMIT' character) *data normal from to tape compass clino 1 2 3 160 - 2 3 3 143 - 3 4 3 180 - 4 5 3 165 - (The latter is more useful where some readings have a clino, but not all) The default vertical standard deviation used for such legs, if not otherwise specified "is taken to be proportional to the tape measurement" https://survex.com/docs/manual/datafile.htm (*data command, 'normal' description) I would assume that you can do this in therion too, but I've not checked. Wookey -- Principal hats: Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM http://wookware.org/
Hi Anton,
data normal from to length compass clino 0 1 5.53 5.5 24.5
If you are trying to do a survey where you just didn't bother to take clino readings, Survex uses "-" for the clino like this, which makes it use 0 as the clino: data normal from to length compass clino 0 1 5.53 5.5 - But Therion does not understand that. You have to explicitly set the clino to 0: data normal from to length compass clino 0 1 5.53 5.5 0 Note that Wookey's suggestion does not work in Therion, even though Survex understands it (Survex treats them as clino=0): data normal from to length compass #error in Therion, it needs a clino 0 1 5.53 5.5 If, however, you are trying to do a survey where you know that the altitude (above a certain fixed point) is v1 metres, and the next station is v2 metres above the fixed point (eg. if you are tracing over a survey with altitude dots, or if you measured vertical descent between stations with a plumb line), you can use "data diving" with v1 and v2 as the fromdepth and todepth: data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth 0 1 5.53 5.5 20 22 #that is a 2 metre rise in altitude 1 2 50 37 22 -10 #that is a 32 metre fall in altitude 2 3 37 100 10 -15 #that is a 25 metre fall in altitude Note that with this approach, it will get the altitude of the cave wrong for exported files, unless you also set a fixed point with the correct altitude. It uses relative altitudes, not actual altitudes. That is how 2-3 leg still manages to be connected to station 2, even though the absolute altitudes make no sense. Cheers, Tarquin
data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth 0 1 5.53 5.5 20 22 #that is a 2 metre rise in altitude 1 2 50 37 22 -10 #that is a 32 metre fall in altitude 2 3 37 100 10 -15 #that is a 25 metre fall in altitude
Of course there is also the other very cool "cylpolar" survey (just put that word instead of "diving"), where you measure with a horizontal tape and spirit level (to keep the tape level) and plumb line. Syntax is identical, but the tape is held horizontally instead of diagonally. You can see the different types of survey here, in the "DATA" section: https://survex.com/docs/manual/datafile.htm Just be aware that this is aimed at Survex, so it uses the "*data" syntax, and it says you can use "-" instead of "0" for the clino if you took no readings. You're using Therion, so you need to use "data", and "0". You might be interested in "depthchange" for example, which allows you to specify a single relative depth change instead of two absolute depths. This should have the effect of flipping positive to negative in dive data: calibrate depth 0 -1 Aside: changing the "zero error" (the first number) to a number will cause that any metres to be subtracted from each relative depth change. So positive depth changes are reduced, and *negative ones are increased*. I cannot see any use for that feature even in actual dive data, or cylpolar data, so in general it probably should be left at 0. Scale is the only thing that really makes sense.
From Survex documentation: CYLPOLAR A CYLPOLAR style survey is very similar to a diving survey, except that the tape is always measured horizontally rather than along the slope of the leg. *data cypolar from to tape compass fromdepth todepth 1 2 9.45 311 -13.3 -19.0 *data cylpolar station depth newline tape compass 1 -13.3 9.45 311 2 -19.0 *data cylpolar from to tape compass depthchange 1 2 9.45 311 -5.7 From Therion documentation: • data <style> <readings order> ▷ set data style (normal, topofil, diving, cartesian, cylpolar, dimensions, nosurvey) and readings order. Reading is one of the following keywords: station, from, to, tape/length, [back]compass/[back]bearing, [back]clino/ [back]gradient, depth, fromdepth, todepth, depthchange, counter, fromcount, tocount, northing, easting, altitude, up/ceiling4, down/floor, left, right, ignore, ignoreall. See Survex manual for details. Martin
14. 7. 2020 v 18:28, Anton van Rosmalen <A.M.vanRosmalen@gmx.net>:
Hey guys,
How do I enter survey data made without a clinometer. I just thought entering data like dive data would work but apparently diving only takes place under water in Therion....
It doesn't matter whether I enter fromdepth todepth data negative or positive, it doesn't matter if I add calibrate depth 0 -1 before the data.... the following line just goes down where it should be going up:
So this:
data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down
r112 h1 7.00 10.00 0.00 5.00 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00
Produces the same results as this:
data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down
calibrate depth 0 -1
r112 h1 7.00 10.00 0.00 5.00 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00
And the same results as this:
data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down
r112 h1 7.00 10.00 0.00 -5.00 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00
Where it should be something somewhat comparable to this:
data normal from to length compass clino 0 1 5.53 5.5 24.5
I looked at various manuals and examples, but they all assume you have a disto or some other clinometer.
What extremely simple point am I too moronic to understand here?
Thanks!
Anton _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
Hi Anton,
the following line just goes down where it should be going up:
data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down
Just realised what your confusion is. "left" "right" "up" and "down" have nothing to do with the station-to-station data. They are for passage dimensions; the distance from the station to the walls, ceiling and floor. You almost certainly didn't need to use those at all. You probably wanted this: data cylpolar from to tape compass depthchange r112 h1 7.00 10.00 8.00 Note the spelling. There is a typo in the Survex docs. Tarquin
And data dimensions station left right up down h1 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00 ... Martin
14. 7. 2020 v 20:51, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion <therion@speleo.sk>:
Hi Anton,
the following line just goes down where it should be going up:
data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down
Just realised what your confusion is. "left" "right" "up" and "down" have nothing to do with the station-to-station data. They are for passage dimensions; the distance from the station to the walls, ceiling and floor. You almost certainly didn't need to use those at all.
You probably wanted this:
data cylpolar from to tape compass depthchange r112 h1 7.00 10.00 8.00
Note the spelling. There is a typo in the Survex docs.
Tarquin _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
depthchange did the trick, you're all amazing :-) I did want to use LRUD data by the way Martin, but thanks for considering it in your answer! I also wanted to take altitude change into consideration, but after running into substantial dry passage after pushing a deep(ish) siphon, there isn't always a clinometer at hand... Thanks again! Anton
Gesendet: Dienstag, 14. Juli 2020 um 20:59 Uhr Von: "Martin Sluka via Therion" <therion@speleo.sk> An: "List for Therion users" <therion@speleo.sk> Cc: "Martin Sluka" <martinsluka@me.com> Betreff: Re: [Therion] Survey without clino
And
data dimensions station left right up down
h1 2.00 0.00 8.00 0.00 ...
Martin
14. 7. 2020 v 20:51, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion <therion@speleo.sk>:
Hi Anton,
the following line just goes down where it should be going up:
data diving from to tape compass fromdepth todepth left right up down
Just realised what your confusion is. "left" "right" "up" and "down" have nothing to do with the station-to-station data. They are for passage dimensions; the distance from the station to the walls, ceiling and floor. You almost certainly didn't need to use those at all.
You probably wanted this:
data cylpolar from to tape compass depthchange r112 h1 7.00 10.00 8.00
Note the spelling. There is a typo in the Survex docs.
Tarquin _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
On 2020-07-14 19:51 +0100, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion wrote:
Note the spelling. There is a typo in the Survex docs.
So there is. That must have been there for years. Patch filed. https://trac.survex.com/attachment/ticket/117/#ticket Wookey -- Principal hats: Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM http://wookware.org/
participants (5)
-
Anton van Rosmalen -
Ben Cooper -
Martin Sluka -
Tarquin Wilton-Jones -
Wookey