Below a conversation transcript that I took briefly ‘off forum’, but now time to post it I think. You can read from the bottom of the transcript below if you are interested. Briefly in summary, it seems to me that since 5.3.5 or earlier, therion loop closure results in grossly distorted outputs IF there are two or more fixed stations AND (only?) for the stations that have standard errors specified AND there are survey networks connecting those fixed stations. Specifying Survex loop closure bypassed this problem. Since I installed Survex 1.2.8 a few weeks agoi, my machine has been giving; “C:\Program Files\Therion\therion.exe: warning -- can't open cavern output” when survex loop closure is specified, and I suspect this is causing Therion to revert to therion loop closure and hence the distortion problem has been manifesting again if I specify std errors. You can see samples of my therion.log files in the attached dataset. Xavier is using Survex 1.2.6 and his log files, which do not have this problem, are attached separately. If you are interested you can experiment with the fixed station statements in the INDEX file in the attached dataset to see what effect various adjustments have. You might also have to adjust the loop-closure statement in therion.ini. So two things to fix; Therions loop closures and Survex 1.2.8 integration with Therion. Bruce _____ From: Bruce [mailto:bruce@tomo.co.nz] Sent: Friday, 27 December 2013 8:47 a.m. To: 'Xavier Pennec' Subject: fixed point std error causes extreme survey network distortion As commented below. Bruce _____ From: Xavier Pennec [mailto:Xavier.Pennec@inria.fr] Sent: Friday, 27 December 2013 12:48 a.m. To: Bruce Mutton Subject: Re: fixed point std error causes extreme survey network distortion Hi Bruce, I just compiled as is and did not get any distortion. However, I have survex installed: I vaguely remember having some problems using the therion loop-closure algorithm with some uncertainty on the fixed points a long time ago (actually problems when survex is not installed, which amounts to using the therion loop-closure engine). Way back in time this was the reason I first installed Survex – I had similar problem with elevations (this one seems mainly a plan problem however) And then later I had this problem that I posted on the forum http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.therion/2378/match=loop+closure Indeed, activating therion loop closure (using "loop-closure therion" in the therion.ini file) distorts the cave …. This might be a side effect of the loop-closure problem that you reported in 2010 (link above) and which is still unsolved apparently. Based on past experience this is what I was expecting, but my current therion.ini is ‘default’ and therion.log reports survex activity, so it seems for me both survex and therion loop closures are now giving me this effect (5.3.11 and 5.3.12 it seems). I have tried editing therion.ini to explicitly force both types of loop closure, and the log file reflects what I specify, but the output is always distorted when there are two or more fixed points and at least one has std errors specified. With therion loop-closure, I get as well with my data some "scraps too large" errors to produce the pdf output. Same (but also for Survex closure for me) Thus, we can conclude to a bug in therion loop-closure. (Historically I agree, but I am perplexed as to why I now get it with Survex loop closure as well. I have searched my machine and cannot find any rogue therion.ini files that might be causing the problem. The log file reports the correct initialization file. Perhaps there is a clue in the log file entry “C:\Program Files\Therion\therion.exe: warning -- can't open cavern output” Maybe this is causing my machine to revert back to therion loop closure in all cases?) … Xavier Le 26/12/2013 02:48, Bruce a écrit : Hi Xavier … I’ve managed to replicate the problem I’ve been having with standard errors on fixed points in this small dataset. It is a cave survey I have been using as a training exercise with prospective Therion users – and consequently not finished, and has some strange things in it. … Interested to see if you get the same problems I am getting. The dataset as attached manifests the problem. I have noticed that if std errors are specified for a particular fixed station, and if the ‘loop closure’ required is not almost exactly zero, then that particular fixed point is displaced significantly from what it should be. You can experiment with this at the start of the file INDEXHunters.th If you comment out the second fix statement you can see what the cave should look like. (oriented roughly east-west) If you compile the attached ‘as is’ and you get an output that looks like this, then you are not experiencing my problem. When I compile the attached, the western entrance is shifted some 300m to the north so that the cave is oriented roughly north south. Not sure, but the problem seems to be related to ‘loop closure’ in ‘north-south’ direction but not ‘east-west’. I think I may have had a similar effect in the vertical direction years ago, and installing Survex (changing loop closure algorithm) fixed it. Open the Hunters3DModel.3d and turn on fixed points, entrances and surface surveys to get an overview of the structure of the survey. Anyway, what happens for you? Distortion or not? Is there anything different in my dataset arrangement that might be causing this? (ie My map definitions in hunters.th are outside of the survey definition). Thanks for any insights you might have. Bruce