Andrew Thanks for those revised input/output file instructions - makes perfect sense now.
Perhaps the plan and elevation scraps should be forced (or at least
have the option)to inherit the map suffixes entered on the Data TAB
(and then the specific plan, elevation and section suffixes entered on
the plan and elevation TABs).
This would ensure better consistency and ready recognition by the
human user of the relationship of particular scraps - maps - files.
Sorry not sure what you mean, do you mean that they all should be NewPassageSuffix.
Can you give an example, this is different from what I do
The approach I am trying to enforce is that each object inherits the name of it's parent, and any suffixes that might have been appended to the parent (or grandparent). Also that each object name describes quite explicitly and unambiguously what it contains (but not overly verbose). Pretty close to what Topparser encourages already. eg Survey name: 404-Quackery Associated maps are therefore named; 404-QuackeryPlan 404-QuackeryElevEXT 404-QuackeryElev290 Etc Topparser encourages this at present. (A somewhat unrelated observation: Maps do not need to be children of the surveys they are based on, but the way Topparser currently creates them they are. Therion does allow them to be outside of the 'survey' 'endsurvey' block, and indeed outside of the survey.th file altogether. This is another topic however, but it could add complexity to Topparser in due course. For now it is easy enough for the user to move the map definitions to another file if they so wish.) Children of the maps (scraps) are therefore named; 404-QuackeryPlan-s1, 404-QuackeryPlan-x1 404-QuackeryElevEXT-s1, 404-QuackeryElevEXT-xp1, 404-QuackeryElevEXT-xv1 All the above can be achieved with Topparser at present, but you have to duplicate part of the suffix as in these screen dumps. The current implementation cannot mimic the type of inheritance I would like for projected elevations however; 404-QuackeryElev290-s1 is what I would like, but; The above produces; 404-QuakeryElev-s290_1 which is at odds with the rest of the object naming. So in summary, Topparser in general allows scraps that are not named the same as the th2 file they are inside of. While this might allow for more abbreviated scrap names it is not what the Therion wiki recommends (sure I've seen it somewhere :) ). This can be compensated for as in the examples above in all cases except for projected elevations. A minor thing that is easy for the user to overwrite each time - but worth considering. Bruce
Hi Martin I think we each lost each others meaning in translation. "Maps do not need to be children of the surveys they are based on, but the way Topparser currently creates them they are. Therion does allow them to be outside of the 'survey' 'endsurvey' block, and indeed outside of the survey.th file altogether." I agree it is a 'feature'. Therion allows maps to be tied to the hierarchy of the surveys and it also allows maps to be completely independent of the survey hierarchy, but it depends on how one constructs the dataset. Despite wanting to for a year or two, I have not yet got around to constructing an 'independent' dataset, so I'm hardly an authority - just repeating what I read in the Therion Book and the wiki. I'm confused by the case you describe below - having 2 nearby caves each with a name 'map1' would be a problem if one used maps that were defined independently. But surely they would sensibly be named CaveAMap and CaveBMap? The reason I like the idea of independent map structures is that, when for example Cave A and Cave B are large cave systems with 2 or 3 levels of nested surveys each, and the distant reaches of these two caves that started out far part are now close together, and one wants a map that consists only of the last 300m of each cave where they are close together. With maps dependant on surveys you need Select submapA@subsurveyA.surveyA Select submapB@subsurveyB.surveyB With maps independent on surveys you only need Select submapA Select submapB The benefits are greater (if I am correct) the more nested levels (I have not yet had to go beyond three) and the more surveys and indeed the more caves that are converging. There is a similar (but partially opposite) effect on the 'station-names' suffixes required when drawing scraps. Now I am rambling. _____ From: therion-bounces@speleo.sk [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Martin Sluka Sent: Monday, 29 July 2013 8:07 p.m. To: List for Therion users Subject: Re: [Therion] Topparser response Jul 29, 2013 v 9:48 AM, Bruce <bruce@tomo.co.nz>: and indeed outside of the <http://survey.th/> survey.th file altogether. It prevent mistake in case: map1 in one system and map1 in another system map1@surveyA is different from map1@surveyB It is feature not bug!!! m.
Jul 29, 2013 v 11:05 AM, Bruce <bruce@tomo.co.nz>:
With maps dependant on surveys you need Select submapA@subsurveyA.surveyA Select submapB@subsurveyB.surveyB
With maps independent on surveys you only need Select submapA Select submapB
The benefits are greater (if I am correct) the more nested levels (I have not yet had to go beyond three) and the more surveys and indeed the more caves that are converging. There is a similar (but partially opposite) effect on the ‘station-names’ suffixes required when drawing scraps.
You are right about benefit. If you do the maps definition alone, you may check it. But it is really difficult to prevent people to name two maps in historically long independent projects which were somewhen connected to one with the same name. The same with station names. This name-spaced structure of therions surveys and maps has the power to accept such duplicities, because there couldn't be duplicities in survey or map structures with suffixes. There couldn't be two identical names od stations in one scrap, there couldn't be two identical names of different stations in one survey, there could be two different but identical named scraps in one map, there couldn't be two identical names of different surveys in parent survey, etc. It is very similar to mail or url addresses. I personally use very long map or survey or scrap names, just to prevent these, but in any enough big dataset you may find: "begin map - endmap" construction without good name of map. BTW to write the all "path" of map you need select in thconfig file you just double-click on particular map in map structure graph in side-menu of compilation window. Martin
okay, yep I see your logic, and it is probably better than mine, but I have historic features like no suffix on my plan files, because I started the project without them. I think I can reasonably easily implement what you are doing, and will try to quickly, as it is exemplar. Maps: I did not realise you could create outside of a survey, as I thought this was how it inherited its name, map@survey and have had no reason to try. I tend just to have a map in the main th file to just just that part of the data set, this then allows people to check it works. (yes I know that if you do not put a map in everything is exported) Then people who are new to therion can run just the bit that they have produced, and all they need to do is add an include, the map and equates to the parent file and they have added there bit. I am not sure where you would write a map in an automatic system if it was not there? I do not want to use this program to edit files that already exist automatically that leads to madness. Anyway if you have a place that you consistently put maps and it is a new file every time I will try to add it, if you send me an example. Documentation: so that explanation worked I will do an update or maybe Graham will, I noticed that the documentation predates the ability to change the surveyors and explorers. Andrew On 29/07/13 08:48, Bruce wrote:
The approach I am trying to enforce is that each object inherits the name of it’s parent, and any suffixes that might have been appended to the parent (or grandparent). Also that each object name describes quite explicitly and unambiguously what it contains (but not overly verbose). Pretty close to what Topparser encourages already.
I am not sure where you would write a map in an automatic system if it
was not there? I do not want to use this program to edit files that already exist automatically that leads to madness. Anyway if you have a place that you consistently put maps and it is a new file every time I will try to add it, if you send me an example. As I noted in my reply to Martin just now, I have not yet tried this out in full. I have ideas, but agree that it is not worth trying to get Topparser to do this. It would be trivial for users to move the map definitions manually.
Documentation: ... I noticed that the documentation predates the ability to
change the surveyors and explorers. Changing surveyors and explorers dose not appear to function on my Windows XP machine. There will be a lot of NZ caves surveyed by Alison and Andrew! Bruce
On 29/07/13 10:05, Bruce wrote:
Changing surveyors and explorers dose not appear to function on my Windows XP machine.
I take it from your screen shots that when you click the add/delete button you just get a blank(ish) window
There will be a lot of NZ caves surveyed by Alison and Andrew!
Same as in the UK then :)) Andrew
Okay new version uploaded, not sure why it has a double name on bitbucket, but it comes through as a normally named file. Fixed the add/delete cavers window Instruments now included in the th file. Instructions are in the process of been uploaded but not in this release. Now to see if I can solve the not processing data problem, could you send me your thconfig file you generated with TopParse. If you do not mind, all the files generated, might be better, include the top file would be good, I will see what happens on this machine On 29/07/13 22:37, Bruce wrote:
I take it from your screen shots that when you click the add/delete button you just get a blank(ish) window
correct
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Fast work Andrew I have downloaded and opened it. The change order and change cavers dialogs now look like they should work. I may not have time to look at this further for another couple of weeks, but I will do as soon as I am free. Someone could add Topparser to http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:complimentarycaveapps#other_a pplications if they want. Otherwise I will add it in due course. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: therion-bounces@speleo.sk [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Andrew Atkinson Sent: Wednesday, 31 July 2013 5:58 a.m. To: List for Therion users Subject: Re: [Therion] Topparser response Okay new version uploaded, not sure why it has a double name on bitbucket, but it comes through as a normally named file. Fixed the add/delete cavers window Instruments now included in the th file. Instructions are in the process of been uploaded but not in this release. Now to see if I can solve the not processing data problem, could you send me your thconfig file you generated with TopParse. If you do not mind, all the files generated, might be better, include the top file would be good, I will see what happens on this machine On 29/07/13 22:37, Bruce wrote:
I take it from your screen shots that when you click the add/delete button you just get a blank(ish) window
correct
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The problem with gaining a user base, even if it is only 2, is that they discover bugs. So it appears Pockettopo now understands normal counting numbered, 1,2,3... correctly so updated TopParser to do that as well. https://bitbucket.org/AndrewA/topparser/downloads Andrew On 30 Jul 2013 21:02, "Bruce" <bruce@tomo.co.nz> wrote:
Fast work Andrew I have downloaded and opened it. The change order and change cavers dialogs now look like they should work. I may not have time to look at this further for another couple of weeks, but I will do as soon as I am free.
Someone could add Topparser to
http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:complimentarycaveapps#other_a pplications if they want. Otherwise I will add it in due course.
Bruce
-----Original Message----- From: therion-bounces@speleo.sk [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Andrew Atkinson Sent: Wednesday, 31 July 2013 5:58 a.m. To: List for Therion users Subject: Re: [Therion] Topparser response
Okay new version uploaded, not sure why it has a double name on bitbucket, but it comes through as a normally named file.
Fixed the add/delete cavers window Instruments now included in the th file.
Instructions are in the process of been uploaded but not in this release.
Now to see if I can solve the not processing data problem, could you send me your thconfig file you generated with TopParse. If you do not mind, all the files generated, might be better, include the top file would be good, I will see what happens on this machine
On 29/07/13 22:37, Bruce wrote:
I take it from your screen shots that when you click the add/delete button you just get a blank(ish) window
correct
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Andrew, when we may expect others OSs version? ;) m.s. Aug 3, 2013 v 8:25 PM, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk>:
The problem with gaining a user base, even if it is only 2, is that they discover bugs.
So it appears Pockettopo now understands normal counting numbered, 1,2,3... correctly so updated TopParser to do that as well.
https://bitbucket.org/AndrewA/topparser/downloads
Andrew
On 30 Jul 2013 21:02, "Bruce" <bruce@tomo.co.nz> wrote: Fast work Andrew I have downloaded and opened it. The change order and change cavers dialogs now look like they should work. I may not have time to look at this further for another couple of weeks, but I will do as soon as I am free.
Someone could add Topparser to http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:complimentarycaveapps#other_a pplications if they want. Otherwise I will add it in due course.
Bruce
-----Original Message----- From: therion-bounces@speleo.sk [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Andrew Atkinson Sent: Wednesday, 31 July 2013 5:58 a.m. To: List for Therion users Subject: Re: [Therion] Topparser response
Okay new version uploaded, not sure why it has a double name on bitbucket, but it comes through as a normally named file.
Fixed the add/delete cavers window Instruments now included in the th file.
Instructions are in the process of been uploaded but not in this release.
Now to see if I can solve the not processing data problem, could you send me your thconfig file you generated with TopParse. If you do not mind, all the files generated, might be better, include the top file would be good, I will see what happens on this machine
On 29/07/13 22:37, Bruce wrote:
I take it from your screen shots that when you click the add/delete button you just get a blank(ish) window
correct
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
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_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion _______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
Martin Sluka - Studio Sluka prodej Hahnemühle DFA tisk fotografií a reprodukcí Na Rovnosti 2692/21 130 00 Praha 3 tel.: +420 603513640 mail: martinsluka@mac.com web: http://www.piezografie.cz
Python is cross platform, so it does run on all OSs. Doubt I can do anything to produce a Mac executable as I believe I have to buy a Mac to do that, which is not going to happen. But if anyone has a Mac and is interested in producing one, i would be grateful. Guess I should look at building for Linux, but every time I have looked in the past, I just get confused... Andrew On 4 Aug 2013 11:12, "Martin Sluka" <martinsluka@mac.com> wrote:
Andrew,
when we may expect others OSs version? ;)
m.s.
Aug 3, 2013 v 8:25 PM, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk>:
The problem with gaining a user base, even if it is only 2, is that they discover bugs.
So it appears Pockettopo now understands normal counting numbered, 1,2,3... correctly so updated TopParser to do that as well.
https://bitbucket.org/AndrewA/topparser/downloads
Andrew On 30 Jul 2013 21:02, "Bruce" <bruce@tomo.co.nz> wrote:
Fast work Andrew I have downloaded and opened it. The change order and change cavers dialogs now look like they should work. I may not have time to look at this further for another couple of weeks, but I will do as soon as I am free.
Someone could add Topparser to
http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:complimentarycaveapps#other_a pplications if they want. Otherwise I will add it in due course.
Bruce
-----Original Message----- From: therion-bounces@speleo.sk [mailto:therion-bounces@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Andrew Atkinson Sent: Wednesday, 31 July 2013 5:58 a.m. To: List for Therion users Subject: Re: [Therion] Topparser response
Okay new version uploaded, not sure why it has a double name on bitbucket, but it comes through as a normally named file.
Fixed the add/delete cavers window Instruments now included in the th file.
Instructions are in the process of been uploaded but not in this release.
Now to see if I can solve the not processing data problem, could you send me your thconfig file you generated with TopParse. If you do not mind, all the files generated, might be better, include the top file would be good, I will see what happens on this machine
On 29/07/13 22:37, Bruce wrote:
I take it from your screen shots that when you click the add/delete button you just get a blank(ish) window
correct
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Martin Sluka - Studio Sluka
prodej Hahnemühle DFA tisk fotografií a reprodukcí
Na Rovnosti 2692/21 130 00 Praha 3 tel.: +420 603513640 mail: martinsluka@mac.com web: http://www.piezografie.cz
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
BTW, you may run MacOSX on Windows machine, as Stacho does. But it doesn't mean I'm forced you to do it. m.s. Aug 4, 2013 v 12:54 PM, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk>:
Doubt I can do anything to produce a Mac executable as I believe I have to buy a Mac to do that, which is not going to happen.
Martin Sluka - Studio Sluka prodej Hahnemühle DFA tisk fotografií a reprodukcí Na Rovnosti 2692/21 130 00 Praha 3 tel.: +420 603513640 mail: martinsluka@mac.com web: http://www.piezografie.cz
But I do not have a windows machine, I am on Debian. I think there is a hacked version that might work on Debian. Andrew On 4 Aug 2013 12:43, "Martin Sluka" <martinsluka@mac.com> wrote:
BTW, you may run MacOSX on Windows machine, as Stacho does. But it doesn't mean I'm forced you to do it.
m.s.
Aug 4, 2013 v 12:54 PM, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk>:
Doubt I can do anything to produce a Mac executable as I believe I have to buy a Mac to do that, which is not going to happen.
Martin Sluka - Studio Sluka
prodej Hahnemühle DFA tisk fotografií a reprodukcí
Na Rovnosti 2692/21 130 00 Praha 3 tel.: +420 603513640 mail: martinsluka@mac.com web: http://www.piezografie.cz
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Something missing for me. There is installation guide only for Windows. m.s. Aug 4, 2013 v 1:45 PM, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk>:
But I do not have a windows machine, I am on Debian. I think there is a hacked version that might work on Debian.
Martin Sluka - Studio Sluka prodej Hahnemühle DFA tisk fotografií a reprodukcí Na Rovnosti 2692/21 130 00 Praha 3 tel.: +420 603513640 mail: martinsluka@mac.com web: http://www.piezografie.cz
Lots missing :( I'm working on it...... On 04/08/13 22:37, Martin Sluka wrote:
Something missing for me. There is installation guide only for Windows.
m.s.
Aug 4, 2013 v 1:45 PM, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk <mailto:andrew@wotcc.org.uk>>:
But I do not have a windows machine, I am on Debian. I think there is a hacked version that might work on Debian.
Martin Sluka - Studio Sluka
prodej Hahnemühle DFA tisk fotografií a reprodukcí
Na Rovnosti 2692/21 130 00 Praha 3 tel.: +420 603513640 mail: martinsluka@mac.com <mailto:martinsluka@mac.com> web: http://www.piezografie.cz
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OK I could not resist after a weekends action packed surveying. Learning to use software that crashed for me but held the promise of an instant transfer was less daunting than manually transferring 5 top files into therion. Your clarifications of the instructions must be OK cos I got the files to go where I expected first try (apart from a typo I made that copied the raw files into the wrong place - lucky I didn't blindly add those to my repository-seems to be a dangerous feature) Hope 1.2.3 produces accurate files Andrew, cos it looks like its progeny are going into my live project. The problems I was having with it not running therion and survex were due to the paths - my therion is on the D: drive - my oversight. Have attached the log file - seems to have a lot of debugging going on? And seems to indicate it has stopped mid process, although it did everything I expected. I still cannot use the map export pdf from the thconfig topparser produces - strange metapost type crash it seems so may be nothing to do with topparser. All my other projects OK. A feature request (from a cautious new user). I wouldn't mind the ability to create a backup dump like PocketTopo's 'export text' and 'export therion' and have them place in the 'raw' folder. Are you able to include a script to get PocketTopo to do that without user intervention? (I'm assuming coding topparser to imitate those is a lot of work and would involve a long testing period to be sure that faithful reproductions of the formats were being produced). Bruce
Woops sorry, that is the stations being read in, should not affect the output. I'll do anther build with the debug stuff removed, soon, it is raining here. What would the advantage of the text dump? Isn't it the equivalent to the Therion file. I don't think it would be difficult to code in. Guess it would force me to look at the bits I have ignored, currently TopoParser ignores the fixed station information Andrew On 4 Aug 2013 11:02, "Bruce" <bruce@tomo.co.nz> wrote:
OK I could not resist after a weekends action packed surveying.****
** **
Learning to use software that crashed for me but held the promise of an instant transfer was less daunting than manually transferring 5 top files into therion.****
Your clarifications of the instructions must be OK cos I got the files to go where I expected first try (apart from a typo I made that copied the raw files into the wrong place – lucky I didn’t blindly add those to my repository-seems to be a dangerous feature)****
** **
Hope 1.2.3 produces accurate files Andrew, cos it looks like its progeny are going into my live project.****
The problems I was having with it not running therion and survex were due to the paths – my therion is on the D: drive – my oversight.****
** **
Have attached the log file – seems to have a lot of debugging going on? And seems to indicate it has stopped mid process, although it did everything I expected.****
I still cannot use the map export pdf from the thconfig topparser produces – strange metapost type crash it seems so may be nothing to do with topparser. All my other projects OK.****
** **
A feature request (from a cautious new user).****
I wouldn’t mind the ability to create a backup dump like PocketTopo’s ‘export text’ and ‘export therion’ and have them place in the ‘raw’ folder. Are you able to include a script to get PocketTopo to do that without user intervention? (I’m assuming coding topparser to imitate those is a lot of work and would involve a long testing period to be sure that faithful reproductions of the formats were being produced).****
** **
Bruce****
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
What would the advantage of the text dump? Isn't it the equivalent to the Therion file. I don't think it would be difficult to code in. Guess it would force me to look at the bits I have ignored, currently TopoParser ignores the fixed station information
The text export is nicely formatted human readable and makes it clear which date and trip comments ('Actual trip' data) apply to which shots. The shot comments are also included. The therion export does not contain the trip comments or the shot comments, but it does include derived coordinates and a text dump of all of the drawings.
PS maps do not work on initials run, as all the th2 file has is empty scale. Shame it causes a fatal error, it would be nice if it was just a warning that nothing could be produced, but in my default file I just have the map export commented out Andrew On 4 Aug 2013 11:02, "Bruce" <bruce@tomo.co.nz> wrote:
OK I could not resist after a weekends action packed surveying.****
** **
Learning to use software that crashed for me but held the promise of an instant transfer was less daunting than manually transferring 5 top files into therion.****
Your clarifications of the instructions must be OK cos I got the files to go where I expected first try (apart from a typo I made that copied the raw files into the wrong place – lucky I didn’t blindly add those to my repository-seems to be a dangerous feature)****
** **
Hope 1.2.3 produces accurate files Andrew, cos it looks like its progeny are going into my live project.****
The problems I was having with it not running therion and survex were due to the paths – my therion is on the D: drive – my oversight.****
** **
Have attached the log file – seems to have a lot of debugging going on? And seems to indicate it has stopped mid process, although it did everything I expected.****
I still cannot use the map export pdf from the thconfig topparser produces – strange metapost type crash it seems so may be nothing to do with topparser. All my other projects OK.****
** **
A feature request (from a cautious new user).****
I wouldn’t mind the ability to create a backup dump like PocketTopo’s ‘export text’ and ‘export therion’ and have them place in the ‘raw’ folder. Are you able to include a script to get PocketTopo to do that without user intervention? (I’m assuming coding topparser to imitate those is a lot of work and would involve a long testing period to be sure that faithful reproductions of the formats were being produced).****
** **
Bruce****
_______________________________________________ Therion mailing list Therion@speleo.sk http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
PS maps do not work on initials run, as all the th2 file has is empty scale. Shame it causes a fatal error, it would be nice if it was just a warning that nothing could be produced, but in my default file I just have the map export commented out
Do you mean empty scraps? Hmm, pretty sure empty scraps are OK (there was a bug where 'debug on' caused a crash and it was fixed in 5.3.11?) Still, a memory is a dangerous thing after a long caving trip - I'll report back - but not soon. Bruce
participants (3)
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Andrew Atkinson -
Bruce -
Martin Sluka