<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Hi Andrew,</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I'm afraid I there is no answer as to whether I mean calibration, declination or calibrate declination.</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
As the survex model has the <span style="font-family:"Segoe UI", "Segoe UI Web (West European)", "Segoe UI", -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important"><b>*calibrate
compass -2.65</b> </span><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">already in it, and I don't know whether this is because they knew the
compass was out, or whether they corrected for the declination in the survex model when the data was put in.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> When I refer to the calibration in Therion, I've just applied the same function</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI", "Segoe UI Web (West European)", "Segoe UI", -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important"> <b>calibrate
compass 357.3</b></span></div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I was hoping that running the comparison between therion and survex on the first leg of the survey, I could work out by trial and error what I should do to make the data the same. I'm happy to apply a fix to all the .th files, to ensure that the models align,
but this doesn't seem like the therion way given that the underlying data is the same.</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
PS. I know there will be parts of the datasets where there are differences, but till I can make the first leg the same, I think it will be difficult for me to spot even the biggest difference.</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<b>Therion.th</b></div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
survey entrance_boulder
<div> centerline</div>
<div> cs UTM30N</div>
<div> station 1 "Cueva del Nacimiento" entrance</div>
<div> fix 1 0363921 4789684 470</div>
<div> </div>
<div> date 2011.08.14 </div>
<div> #calibrate compass 357.35</div>
<div> </div>
<div> units length meters</div>
<div> units compass clino degrees</div>
<div> data normal from to length compass clino</div>
<div> </div>
<div>1 2 13.40 131 10.0</div>
2 3 10.50 194 1.0<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
endcentreline</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
endsurvey</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<b>config</b></div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
source therion.th
<div style=""><br>
</div>
export model -o therion.3d<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<b>Survex.svx</b></div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
*begin entrance_boulder
<div>*entrance 1</div>
<div>*fix 1 0363921 4789684 470; Cueva del Nacimiento (Cueva del Agua)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>*date 2011.08.14</div>
<div>;instruments: SWCC compass and clino, colins laser pointer</div>
<div>;*calibrate compass -2.65</div>
<div>*calibrate clino -0.5</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>;**ENTRANCE TO BOULDER HALL**</div>
<div>;****************************</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>*data normal from to direction tape compass clino</div>
<div>1 2 13.40 131 10.0</div>
<div>2 3 10.50 194 1.0</div>
*end entrance_boulder
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div id="Signature">
<div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt; color:#000000; font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="3"><font face="Arial">Regards,</font><font face="Arial"><br>
</font><font face="Arial">Alastair Gott.</font><font face="Arial"><br>
<br>
</font><font face="Arial">AlastairGott@hotmail.com,</font><font face="Arial"><br>
</font><font face="Arial">M: 07931779380.</font></font><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="appendonsend"></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Therion <therion-bounces@speleo.sk> on behalf of Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 March 2021 16:53<br>
<b>To:</b> therion@speleo.sk <therion@speleo.sk><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Therion] compass correction Re: Strange Therion/survex disparity</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt;">
<div class="PlainText">First when you say calibration, you do mean calibration not declination,<br>
(or calibrate declination, which is an older form of declination) which<br>
have slightly different functions?<br>
There is more about these in the documentation, which can be useful when<br>
dealing with old data sets.<br>
<br>
I started a quick test hoping this would only take 5 mins, but got no<br>
where, but found something interesting, I have run out of time, not read<br>
the manual etc, so just putting this up as it could be useful<br>
<br>
I produced two files identical except in the annoying format<br>
differences. See below<br>
<br>
I was expecting to see some difference between the 1980 and 220 as the<br>
declination has moved about 3° I was interested to see what happened to<br>
the no date one.<br>
<br>
However, the answer was nothing happened everything came out the same,<br>
with not adjustment, both in survex and therion. I noticed I didn't get<br>
a list of declinations, so ran one of my older files, and it was there<br>
<br>
geomag declinations (deg):<br>
2010.1.1 -2.6622<br>
2011.1.1 -2.4922<br>
<br>
So at some point I knew what I was doing, but now I don't, but there are<br>
no errors and no way to tell its not working!<br>
<br>
Now I think that the problem with Therion is it is doing something weird<br>
with the date.<br>
<br>
Happily accepts<br>
date 9999999<br>
or<br>
date 999.11<br>
Not happy with<br>
date 99.99999 invalid date month<br>
<br>
Goodness know how it is interpreting those<br>
<br>
Survex give a sensible error message about the dates that can be use.<br>
<br>
Andrew<br>
<br>
<br>
Therion 5.5.7<br>
<br>
survey all<br>
<br>
<br>
equate 1@2020 1@nodate 1@1980<br>
<br>
survey 2020<br>
centerline<br>
cs OSGB:ST<br>
date 2020<br>
data normal from to tape compass clino<br>
1 2 15 90 0<br>
2 3 10 180 0<br>
endcentreline<br>
endsurvey<br>
<br>
survey nodate<br>
centerline<br>
cs OSGB:ST<br>
data normal from to tape compass clino<br>
<br>
1 2 15 90 0<br>
2 3 10 180 0<br>
endcentreline<br>
endsurvey<br>
<br>
survey 1980<br>
centerline<br>
cs OSGB:ST<br>
<br>
date 1980<br>
data normal from to tape compass clino<br>
1 2 15 90 0<br>
2 3 10 180 0<br>
endcentreline<br>
endsurvey<br>
<br>
endsurvey<br>
<br>
<br>
Survex<br>
<br>
*Begin all<br>
<br>
*Equate 2020.1 nodate.1 1980.1<br>
<br>
*Begin 2020<br>
*cs OSGB:ST<br>
*date 2020<br>
*Data normal from to tape compass clino<br>
1 2 15 90 0<br>
2 3 10 180 0<br>
<br>
*End 2020<br>
<br>
*Begin nodate<br>
<br>
*Data normal from to tape compass clino<br>
*cs OSGB:ST<br>
<br>
1 2 15 90 0<br>
2 3 10 180 0<br>
<br>
*End nodate<br>
<br>
*Begin 1980<br>
*cs OSGB:ST<br>
*Date 1980<br>
*Data normal from to tape compass clino<br>
1 2 15 90 0<br>
2 3 10 180 0<br>
<br>
*End 1980<br>
<br>
*End all<br>
<br>
On 15/03/2021 14:45, Alastair Gott wrote:<br>
> Hi therion people,<br>
> <br>
> I’m working on the dataset again with my friend.<br>
> <br>
> We’ve found that the survex model uses a compass calibration in some<br>
> places and are trying to work out if this needs transposing across to<br>
> the therion model.<br>
> But in the process I have found out that when we give therion a compass<br>
> reading it’s always taking off 0.9 to 1 degree from the reading given in<br>
> the .th data.<br>
> <br>
> I’ve just run changes to entrance-boulder in both therion and survex.<br>
> Below results just for first leg 1-2<br>
> <br>
> No date+compass calib= 133.6 deg survex// 132.6 deg therion<br>
> Date + no compass calib=131.0 deg survex// 130.1 deg therion<br>
> No date+no compass calib=131 deg survex// 130deg therion<br>
> Date + compass calib=133.6 deg survex// 132.7 deg therion<br>
> <br>
> So clearly therion is correcting the data 1[] 2[] 13.4[] 131[] 10.0<br>
> By always taking one degree off the compass irrespective of what we tell it.<br>
> <br>
> (For information: When calibration used survex= *calibrate compass -2.65<br>
> // therion= calibrate compass 357.35)<br>
> <br>
> Does anyone have any ideas where therion is pulling this 1 degree<br>
> correction from?<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Regards,<br>
> Alastair Gott.<br>
> <br>
> On 26 Feb 2021, at 07:43, A Gott <alastairgott@gmail.com<br>
> <<a href="mailto:alastairgott@gmail.com">mailto:alastairgott@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
>> HI Tarquin and Andrew,<br>
>><br>
>> Many thanks for that, We were just lost, I think we'll be able to pick<br>
>> it up from here with your helpful guidance. Should just be a case of<br>
>> looking through the .th files and looking for all the 90's<br>
>><br>
>> I hope you are both well.<br>
>><br>
>> Al.<br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 at 07:33, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@wotcc.org.uk<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:andrew@wotcc.org.uk">mailto:andrew@wotcc.org.uk</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> > DOWN has been mis-converted into +90 rather than -90, when<br>
>> converting<br>
>> > from Survex format to Therion format.<br>
>> > Survex:<br>
>> > 2213 2212 B 3.49 - DOWN<br>
>> > Therion:<br>
>> > 2213 2212 3.49 311 90<br>
>> > I'm guessing that error may turn up elsewhere. consort_climax looks<br>
>> > similarly wrong.<br>
>> As a point to note -90 and Down at treated differently for clino<br>
>> correction, they can be treated ed the same<br>
>><br>
>> From the survex manual<br>
>><br>
>> "*infer plumbs on" tells cavern to interpret gradients of +/- 90<br>
>> degrees as UP/DOWN (so it will not apply the clino correction to<br>
>> them).<br>
>> This is useful when the data has not been converted to have UP and<br>
>> DOWN<br>
>><br>
>> Andrew<br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Therion mailing list<br>
>> Therion@speleo.sk <<a href="mailto:Therion@speleo.sk">mailto:Therion@speleo.sk</a>><br>
>> <a href="https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0afac4de572448cf95508d8e7d2f653%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637514240552340058%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=0kBJbg6XfaDY5GZiSEKNy%2Bp7uJ%2BNB4VGUZndn8sbuYg%3D&reserved=0">
https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0afac4de572448cf95508d8e7d2f653%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637514240552340058%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=0kBJbg6XfaDY5GZiSEKNy%2Bp7uJ%2BNB4VGUZndn8sbuYg%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
>> <<a href="https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0afac4de572448cf95508d8e7d2f653%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637514240552340058%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=0kBJbg6XfaDY5GZiSEKNy%2Bp7uJ%2BNB4VGUZndn8sbuYg%3D&reserved=0">https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0afac4de572448cf95508d8e7d2f653%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637514240552340058%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=0kBJbg6XfaDY5GZiSEKNy%2Bp7uJ%2BNB4VGUZndn8sbuYg%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
>><br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Therion mailing list<br>
> Therion@speleo.sk<br>
> <a href="https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0afac4de572448cf95508d8e7d2f653%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637514240552340058%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=0kBJbg6XfaDY5GZiSEKNy%2Bp7uJ%2BNB4VGUZndn8sbuYg%3D&reserved=0">
https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0afac4de572448cf95508d8e7d2f653%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637514240552340058%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=0kBJbg6XfaDY5GZiSEKNy%2Bp7uJ%2BNB4VGUZndn8sbuYg%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
> <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Therion mailing list<br>
Therion@speleo.sk<br>
<a href="https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0afac4de572448cf95508d8e7d2f653%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637514240552340058%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=0kBJbg6XfaDY5GZiSEKNy%2Bp7uJ%2BNB4VGUZndn8sbuYg%3D&reserved=0">https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.speleo.sk%2Flistinfo%2Ftherion&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0afac4de572448cf95508d8e7d2f653%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637514240552340058%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=0kBJbg6XfaDY5GZiSEKNy%2Bp7uJ%2BNB4VGUZndn8sbuYg%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
</body>
</html>