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<DIV>Bruce a very useful article but it differs from my experience in a couple
of ways.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I thought a couple of months ago I would try and produce a reasonable 3d
model of a cave. So I surveyed a short section of passage with more data than I
could possibly normally use. I set stations at 5m intervals and took 8 wall
measurements every 1m. This would get me a lot of splays that I could then use
as vertices for a 3d model (if I could find/write some software to make the
model, not done yet)</DIV>
<DIV>I could then compare this model with the one Therion produces and see which
extra splays are really needed. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Unlike your models I seem to get the centreline tube in the middle (mostly)
of the scrap tube. Unfortunately this centreline tube often protrudes through
the scrap tube, ruining the model. How am I getting two tube? I have tried
various options with walls on/off/auto or commented out, to no avail.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I also found the Dimensions –value [up, down] useful but it sometimes does
unexpected things.</DIV>
<DIV>Passage Height was even worse for this. If a single number was given it
distributed the measurement above and below the centreline. If + – was used it
appeared on the plan but did nothing on the model.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>using Therion 5.3.11</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is a work in progress and your mail has come at just the right
time</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Cheers</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=bruce@tomo.co.nz
href="mailto:bruce@tomo.co.nz">Bruce</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 20, 2013 11:12 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=therion@speleo.sk href="mailto:therion@speleo.sk">'List
for Therion users'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [Therion] Loch passage tube behaviour</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Footleg<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">I think the answer is
‘yes’.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Hopefully you can view the images
embedded in the image rather than attached, otherwise this won’t make much
sense.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">In this example there is a single
centreline (comprising both cave and surface survey) and 4
scraps.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">A short section of cave at the left
hand end does not have any scrap drawn.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Compiled with Therion
5.3.11<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">One interesting point is that
regardless of the ‘walls’ setting, there is never a tube generated there once we
have scraps drawn anywhere in this centreline. My deduction is that Loch
uses only one type of tube generation per centreline, because in almost all my
larger projects that transition between traditional survey and paperless survey,
I have a combination of each type of tube generation within the same <st1:place
w:st="on">Loch</st1:place> model.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">This fits with the description in
the Therion Book<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-STYLE: italic">“walls
<auto/on/off> turn on/off passage shape generation from LRUD data
for<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-STYLE: italic">subsequent
shots. If set auto, passage is generated only if there is no scrap
referencing<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-STYLE: italic">given
centreline.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">In these examples I have not used
any ‘point passage-height’ or ‘point dimensions’ in the
scraps.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><IMG id=_x0000_i1031
src="cid:375CE7EA5D904AD6966252965B07F382@Study" width=439
height=363><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Paperless survey (no LRUD), walls
auto, off or on (or not specified), No plan scraps. [<st1:place
w:st="on">Loch</st1:place> always guesses tube
dimensions]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">-same if LRUD present and walls
off<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><IMG id=_x0000_i1025
src="cid:5D111A45FA8848A4A3E35632D2814D11@Study" width=435
height=346><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Paperless survey (no LRUD), walls
auto, off or on (or not specified), plan scraps drawn [<st1:place
w:st="on">Loch</st1:place> uses scraps for tube width and guesses tube
height]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Now, I added a few LRUD to the same
centreline, including some with only UD<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> data dimensions station left
right up down<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> 1.4 - - 20
20<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> 1.5 - - 20
20<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> 1.6 2 2 20
20<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> 3.13 10 10 20
20<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> 3.14 10 10 20
20<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Tube generation, where it occurs
extends one station beyond those specified.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><IMG id=_x0000_i1039
src="cid:5150116C1E094479BA29B4E164BDAC7A@Study" width=442
height=438><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Paperless survey (some LRUD), walls
on or auto (or not specified), No plan scraps. [<st1:place
w:st="on">Loch</st1:place> uses LRUD for tube dimensions and only for stations
where partial data is provided, it guesses the missing data ie if a
station has no data, no tube is generated]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">And now adding some scraps and
things get interesting.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><IMG id=_x0000_i1044
src="cid:E2A6C882D466421791A0F0969C48A396@Study" width=456
height=434><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Paperless survey (some LRUD), walls
off (or not specified), Plan scraps drawn. [<st1:place
w:st="on">Loch</st1:place> uses scraps, not LR, for tube plan dimensions, and UD
for height where specified, otherwise height is guessed. Where there are
no scraps, LRUD is <U>not</U> used.]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">That is perhaps contrary to what one
might expect from the Therion Book ‘walls’ entry. It also produces perhaps
the best model.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><IMG id=_x0000_i1047
src="cid:5B8315EC8FCD4B7BA932AA74B02CF171@Study" width=458
height=438><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Paperless survey (some LRUD), walls
on or auto, Plan scraps drawn. [<st1:place w:st="on">Loch</st1:place> uses
scraps AND LR for tube plan dimensions, and UD for height where specified,
otherwise height is guessed. Where there is no LR, then it is guessed.
Where there are no scraps, LRUD <U>is</U> used.]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">If I change the LRUD definition like
this…<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> data dimensions station up
down<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> 1.4 20
20<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> 1.5 20
20<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> 1.6 20
20<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> data dimensions station left
right up down <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> 3.13 10 10 20
20<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> 3.14 10 10 20
20<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">..then the guessed width troubles
continue.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><IMG id=_x0000_i1050
src="cid:F7F2A04DB04C41C28B154C926BC0CF4A@Study" width=463
height=462><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Paperless survey (some LRUD), walls
on or auto, Plan scraps drawn. [same as above]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">So my final conclusion, for
paperless survey, no need to include walls statements in each survey, or if you
do, walls off is better than on or auto. If you happen to provide some UD data,
then your model will be improved (more realistic).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">I surmise that with these same
settings, scraps with point passage-height or point dimensions will have a
similar effect, but I have not tested this.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Bruce<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<P>
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